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Love Old School Trek Classics? Let's Bantam Banter...

Stevil2001 said:
I don't think you overstated it at all. The Wounded Sky is incredible.
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I bought it hot off the press/shelf in Hawaii, on my one-night stopover to the US mainland. First overseas vacation and now I had new Trek to read! Incredibly exciting to get a Trek novel that Australia would have to wait at least three more months to receive (via sea freight). Reading about the numerous bizarre warp jumps in TWS while traveling on planes was strangely... real.
 
Mutoid said:
T'Avri said:
Although the character Anitra in many ways fits the Mary Sue profile, I actually have always loved this book....
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To me its not the female love interest that's the problem in any novel. Its when the main characters dote/admire them so much that they act out of character.
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Exactly. The problem with the idea of a "Mary Sue profile" is that the term doesn't refer to any prominent female guest character who's the focus of a story -- it refers to such a character done badly, especially in a way that mishandles the lead characters. So it's not the profile that makes a Mary Sue, it's the execution.

After all, the reason the early fanfic authors included so many strong, central female guest stars in their fiction was because TOS had such a male-dominated core cast, and they were trying -- quite justifiably -- to correct that imbalance. And having a guest star be more prominent in a story than the leads isn't intrinsically wrong, because it was a common practice in '60s television to build episodes around guest stars, as TOS itself did in episodes like "Mudd's Women" and "Charlie X." But some authors did it well and others did it badly. So in the early novels, we have some excellent featured female guests like Mandala Flynn and Kailyn and Evan Wilson and Piper (arguably), and we have some badly done, blatant Mary Sues like Elizabeth Schaeffer and Sola Thane. The mistake people make today is to lump them all under the "Mary Sue" rubric without distinguishing between the ones that work and the ones that don't.
 
I guess I didn't state my point clearly in that Anitra is a terrible character beyond her Mary Sue status. For all intents and purposes, she has no real redeeming qualities besides self-sacrafice. (It's nice when they kill the Mary Sue off in the end, but even that tired ploy is such an overused construct... bleh.)

Usually I would give up on a book at the first sign of a Mary Sue or a Boy Wonder. There's only room aboard ship for one exceedingly brilliant, know-it-all, mastermind prodigy with devilish good looks... and that's Spock. He's the balance of raw intellectualism to raw emotion harmonized by duty and fealty. No one can compete with the Enterprise triad, and writers need to just stop beating a dead sehlat in this regard.

(It's no wonder why everyone hated Wesley Crusher... )

But, I do think Demons stands strong for its many other numerous good qualities, not for Anitra.

The first few chapters are nearly unbearable because of her, but you get through it because Dillard otherwise wrote a solid and unique story, and in usual fashion, identifies really well with the main characters. McCoy is a real whiner, but I guess that's typical of him anyways.

I'm not sure if you've read it yourself, but if not, I highly recommend it.
 
Oh, I read them all back then. There was a time when I prided myself on having a first printing of every Pocket Trek novel there was. But eventually there just got to be too many of them, and my discretionary income got tighter, so I had to dial back the book-buying.
 
**Holy Tribbles!** Is it really THE Christopher L. Bennett responding to my sardonic ramblings?? I just read your username and realized you are the writer of one of my all time favorite modern Trek novels.

Ex Machina was amazing. McCoy's relationship with Natira needed an overhaul; it was the Undiscovered Country of messed up, guilt-ridden, unrequited love stories. I really enjoyed every minute of it and couldn't put it down. The part in chapter nine where you talk about how many of the other Vulcans viewed Spock as v'tosh ka'tur for his emotionalism after V'Ger gave me inspiration in some of my own fiction writing endeavors as well.

I promise not to get all weird Trekkie fangirl on you, but I just have to say thank you for making me think a little bit deeper about one of my favorite characters and for entertaining me with a fantastic story. If only more of TMP era books were written with such attention to chronology and character.

Your work on Mere Anarchy and Constellations was also intriguing and memorable. Fascinating stuff all around!

But I digress...
 
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T'Avri said:
I guess I didn't state my point clearly in that Anitra is a terrible character beyond her Mary Sue status. For all intents and purposes, she has no real redeeming qualities besides self-sacrafice. (It's nice when they kill the Mary Sue off in the end, but even that tired ploy is such an overused construct... bleh.)

Usually I would give up on a book at the first sign of a Mary Sue or a Boy Wonder. There's only room aboard ship for one exceedingly brilliant, know-it-all, mastermind prodigy with devilish good looks... and that's Spock. He's the balance of raw intellectualism to raw emotion harmonized by duty and fealty. No one can compete with the Enterprise triad, and writers need to just stop beating a dead sehlat in this regard.

(It's no wonder why everyone hated Wesley Crusher... )

But, I do think Demons stands strong for its many other numerous good qualities, not for Anitra.

The first few chapters are nearly unbearable because of her, but you get through it because Dillard otherwise wrote a solid and unique story, and in usual fashion, identifies really well with the main characters. McCoy is a real whiner, but I guess that's typical of him anyways.

I'm not sure if you've read it yourself, but if not, I highly recommend it.
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While I haven't read this novel, I agree with the idea. If there's other things that are good about the story you can ignore a Mary Sue and go on and enjoy the rest of it
To me (an not everyone it seems) there were not many other redeeming features about Death's Angel.

I thought Kirk and Spock were out of character
The idea that Kirk and Spock would let someone threaten to blow up their ship if they did not cooperate and then help her and Kirk genuinely woo her after that crosses the line for me.
I thought Sarek was out of character.
I thought the Ambassadors were parodies.
I thought it was amazing that these Ambassadors were going down like flies on her watch yet the Colonel was still able to wield more power than a Starship Captain.
I didn't want to hear about the Colonel's complicated love story that didn't involve what was going on on the ship. Background is OK but it went on and on.

If this had been a non-StarTrek novel I would wonder why the first thing Schaeffer would have done would be to remove Kirk from his captaincy - he was so inept.
And since it was a Star Trek novel and Kirk was supposed to be the hero, why didn't Kirk jetison Schaeffer when he heard about the threat to his ship.

It was a ridiculous threat anyway - was she going to blow up a ship full of Ambassadors anyway, what would that achieve?

Sorry if I got the details wrong but I'mnot reading it again to check it. LOL.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

There's a couple of more recent TOS novels that I've read where Kirk's romancing someone and I just roll my eyes because you know he's never going to leave the Enterprise for some random girl. But that doesn't make the novel necessarily bad - just be aware that we readers know.
But there's a movie era novel I read where an older Spock considers hooking up with a girl and it makes sense. She's realistic that duty and loyalty comes before her and it makes sense that it could happen.
 
I'm assuming you're talking about Crucible: Spock: The Fire and the Rose ..? Yes, the relationship did make sense in some ways. They seemed to be two plomeeks in a pod; it's unfortunate that the rest of the book was so wildly out of character.

One of my favorite classic Pocket books is Vulcan's Glory by the eminent DC Fontana. The relationship illustrated in that novel has always seemed the most realistic and truthful to me in terms of Spock's personality, character and interests. It has a terribly sad twist in the middle, but that is also in line with Spock's history of tragic lost love.
 
T'Avri said:
I'm assuming you're talking about Crucible: Spock: The Fire and the Rose ..? Yes, the relationship did make sense in some ways. They seemed to be two plomeeks in a pod; it's unfortunate that the rest of the book was so wildly out of character.

One of my favorite classic Pocket books is Vulcan's Glory by the eminent DC Fontana. The relationship illustrated in that novel has always seemed the most realistic and truthful to me in terms of Spock's personality, character and interests. It has a terribly sad twist in the middle, but that is also in line with Spock's history of tragic lost love.
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No the book I was referring too was "Mind Meld' which is a more recent book (only 17 years old LOL). While I share your dislike of the Crucible books to be fair I too didn't mind Spock's love interest in it.

I haven't read Vulcan's Glory so it looks like one to try.

I'm currently reading Ishmael and have just finished "Minddhadow" by J. M Dillard. Talk about a big fat Mary Sue (with a twist). It fits the definition provided in this thread perfectly.


McCoy falls in love with the Mary Sue on first sight.
Kirk also falls in love with her.
Spock feels respect for her despite the fact that she tried to hurt/kill him and drive him to suicide.
I was wondering as I read the novel, how come Kirk allowed her free reign of the ship, of an injured Spock. And why Kirk and McCoy seemed incompetent.
And pio why Kirk believed her rather than his own men etc.
I actually thought she had hypnotised Kirk or something - I didn't realise she had the magic of a Mary Sue LOL.

And she tragically dies in the end or does she?

Still aside from some slight inexplicable IMO 'adoring' behaviour from Kirk this Mary Sue doesn't get in the way of the story. Who could not like a novel so full of hurtSpock?:lol:
 
Mind Shadow is quite a different novel from the usual Trek books. Usually a main character doesn't spend the entire book in sick bay potentially crippled, but it did create some good drama. The guest female character was annoying and all over the place, but I liked the twist at the end concerning her identity. JM DIllard can't help but write that kind of female character it seems.. Its a definite pattern in his books. Mind Shadow was never one of my most favorite novels, but I'd be willing to revisit it again.

Ishamael is undeniably one of my ALL TIME favorites. It's a beautiful story with a rich plot, plenty of memorable dialogue and very descriptive word play. I just re-read it about two months ago and it was just as incredible as the first time I read it fifteen year ago. Maybe even better.


Vulcan's Glory: READ IT. You won't be disapponted if you like a good Spock story. It's got tons of Vulcan history, shattered love and takes a glimpse into Spock's life on the Enterprise under the command of Captain Pike. Its an instant classic and an all around solid novel.

I loved Mind Meld! It's a fun and fast paced story and I really enjoyed the Rigellian cultural angle that took on a life of its own. The magic healing goo also reminded me of Vulcan Academy Murders, another fave classic Pocket book.

So many great titles!

And on a side note, I don't like seeing Spock get physically hurt. That's what Kirk is around for. LOL
 
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I do own SPOCK: MESSIAH (by Theodore Cogswell &
Charles A. Spano, Jr). At first, I suspected the story might've had to do with "Spock Meets Jesus." Wrong! The cover-art sports Spock in a hoodie and he's pictured with a Belly Dancer, I believe. The book is very corny and charming in its own way. It's been a while since I read it, but they saw me coming, when they threw the "Messiah" part in ... that's for certain. :vulcan:
 
Ah. I see... well, I'll have enough posts someday... (pesky scammers!)

Spock Messiah is such a quirky book! The plot if I remember it is based on some failed telepathic experiment leading to Spock taking some notes from Sybok's book o' fanaticism. I vaguely remember there being some group of space gypsies... If I'm thinking right, that book was also quite racist in how it described some members of the Bridge crew (Uhura for instance) and was a bit extreme even for the time it was published.

The term Spock-sploitation comes to mind... maybe this book was the root of that phenomena, but I can't totally be sure if I'm remembering that right.

It's been years since I've read it, but I downloaded a digital copy not that long ago that is collecting virtual dust in my book que.. I just might have to go check into it again.
 
JD said:
J(eanne). M. Dillard is a woman.
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/
Hey JD you're not J M Dillard are you ? :lol:
If you are I'm going to start praising your other Star Trek books.


T'Avri said:
Ah. I see... well, I'll have enough posts someday... (pesky scammers!)

Spock Messiah is such a quirky book! The plot if I remember it is based on some failed telepathic experiment leading to Spock taking some notes from Sybok's book o' fanaticism. I vaguely remember there being some group of space gypsies... If I'm thinking right, that book was also quite racist in how it described some members of the Bridge crew (Uhura for instance) and was a bit extreme even for the time it was published.

The term Spock-sploitation comes to mind... maybe this book was the root of that phenomena, but I can't totally be sure if I'm remembering that right.

It's been years since I've read it, but I downloaded a digital copy not that long ago that is collecting virtual dust in my book que.. I just might have to go check into it again.
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I read 'Spock Messiah' in my early teens. My memory is that it was a pretty adult book in places. That just maybe me remembering some bits that were racy to me as a 12 year old.
 
T'Avri said:
It's been years since I've read it, but I downloaded a digital copy not that long ago that is collecting virtual dust in my book que.. I just might have to go check into it again.
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The Bantam novels are available as eBooks now? If you don't mind me asking, where did you get it from? The Kobo store doesn't seem to have any of them.

It's probably for Kindle, isn't it? *grumble* proprietary format *grumble* :sigh:
 
T'Avri said:
JD said:
J(eanne). M. Dillard is a woman.
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Well, it looks like I mixed up my personal pronouns. We can't be perfect all the time.

My sincere apologies. *Bows humbly*

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/25100000/Nobody-s-perfect-Saavik-vulcans-25142216-500-621.png

Hmmm... it won't let me post an appropo image. Lame.
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My apolgies if I upset you, that was not my intent. I just though maybe you didn't know, and was just trying to be helpful. Again, sorry.
Mutoid said:
JD said:
J(eanne). M. Dillard is a woman.
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/
Hey JD you're not J M Dillard are you ? :lol:
If you are I'm going to start praising your other Star Trek books.
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Nope. I'm just another regular poster.
 
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