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Did anything good come from Project Vanguard?

Corran Horn

Vice Admiral
Admiral
The books are great. I'll state that right away. What I'm asking about is from an in-universe perspective.

I've re-read the series recently due to the Seekers books coming out and it really made me wonder - did anything positive come out of Starfleet's efforts in the Taurus Reach?

I remember during my first read-through thinking things like replicators, dermal regeneration, and other 24th century technologies may have grown from understanding of the Jinoteur Pattern and things like that - but as the series goes on it's made clear (particularly in In Tempest's Wake) that Starfleet pretty much bottled up all the research on the metagenome and socked it away for good.

Mention is made of the civilian scientists being sent off to Regula---and we know how that worked out.

I suppose argument could be made for the Klingons or Romulans 'getting there first' and making technological efforts but the reaction of the Tholians in Storming Heaven shows to me that they would have stopped at nothing to prevent anyone from using the Shedai technology no matter who it was.

It seems to me a lot of people died for something that Starfleet really shouldn't have been doing anyway and had almost no real return.

I know what occurs in the later 24th century novels - to me, that is really the only real positive return that was seen - and even that had to be done on the sly and it was certainly not something Starfleet or the Federation Council wanted done.

Heck, Nimbus III was born of the diplomatic situation on Vanguard and that didn't turn out well either.
 
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Interesting questions, ones that hit upon the core dilemma at the heart of the Vanguard saga: Are the sacrifices we are asked to accept on behalf of the national security state really worth it? Or are they a fool's bargain? Was keeping dangerous technology out of the hands of parties we considered less than scrupulous worth the cost in lives and honor?

These questions aren't meant to be easily answered, and in fact we decided to leave certain moral summations untallied at the end of the saga, so that readers could decide for (and debate among) themselves whether Starfleet's efforts had, in fact, been worth the cost.

Okay, so Nimbus III ended up a mess. Does that mean the effort to maintain back channels of communication wasn't worth it? Or was it a necessary step toward keeping the peace?

So the Tholians were willing to go to the mat to contain the Meta-genome and other products of the Shedai. Does that mean Starfleet should have trusted the Tholians to contain any potential Klingon or Romulan threat stemming from those technologies? Heck, at the outset, Starfleet had no idea why the Tholians even cared about any of this.

In the end, Starfleet and the Federation made some amazing scientific advances because of their work in the Taurus Reach, and it can be argued they did so with greater ethical and moral probity than the Klingons or Romulans might have been expected to do. Isn't that worth the cost of the mission? Just because the Genesis technology is buried now, that doesn't mean it will stay that way forever....
 
Great points, Mr. Mack! I'd add that although a number of things that happened in Taurus Reach didn't appear to yield positive results initially, it doesn't necessarily follow that some of the advances made as result of the project won't pan out down the line.

I actually find myself drawing a lot of comparisons between Vanguard and Spock's vision for the Mirror Universe. His vision of a peaceful, benevolent government didn't yield immediate or even short-term positive results--in fact, the Terrans were enslaved by the Alliance for decades before they finally gained their freedom--but the ideas and goals that he championed paved the way for a more sustainable government than the ill-fated Terran Empire we saw in TOS.

Vanguard was a costly endeavor, but the information as a result of the project may eventually benefit the Federation--legally--as well as other civilizations. That the 23rd or the 24th century isn't the right time for that information to be used doesn't mean it has to be that way forever.

--Sran
 
I know a lot of bad came from the whole Taurus Reach 'experiment', but the salvation of an entire race, one of the founding Federation members no less, makes it all worth it in my eyes. Although the price was a stiff one ...
 
I recently read an interview with SF novelist David Brin that's relevant to this question:

http://io9.com/are-we-overthinking-the-perils-of-artificial-intelligen-1643292210

He argues that in SF books like Michael Crichton's which are about technology running amok and doing harm, the real problem isn't that the research was done, but that it was done in secret, without peer review to provide error correction, and without checks and balances to provide ethical safeguards. Science requires transparency and open criticism, both for the sake of verifying its legitimacy and for the sake of ensuring its ethical application. And the same goes for government or military policy. Secrecy is routinely invoked in the name of security, but it often becomes a threat to security, because it takes away necessary safeguards against bad decisions. People are more likely to misbehave when they think nobody's watching them. Brin argues that the best defense against the risk of abuse of the surveillance state, or the risk of state and corporate corruption in general, is with sousveillance -- watching from below rather than above, the people watching the state and the corporations just as pervasively and constantly as they watch us, so that everything is out in the open.

So the problem with Vanguard was that the decision-makers didn't feel they'd be held accountable because they were acting in the shadows. If the whole thing had been out in the open from the start, if it hadn't been poisoned by all the secrets and lies, then the pervasive public scrutiny would've compelled a more ethical approach.
 
I agree with a lot of what David Mack said.

But by burying the whole thing at the end of VAN, didn't the Federation also deprive itself of good things - f.e. the way the Jinoteur Pattern could be used to regrow limbs (as shown in Reap the Whirlwind)? I'm sure what happens post-Destiny (haven't read the books dealing with that crisis yet, only the DRG-novels from the Typhon Pact and The Fall) is based on those findings, but I wonder if the 100+ years-gap couldn't have been closed down a bit by having the research more out in the open.

But my issue with the whole thing is a more idealistic one, I guess. Nearly every major decision in VAN is based on fear or distrust. I realize that collaborating in the research into the Shedai and the metagenome was politically impossible - but I'd really have loved to see the results in a joined research that's not aimed at gaining an advantage over somebody else, but on true scientific curiosity... and maybe more based on solid moral grounds than the hushed up operation here.

Starfleet might have made huge advances - but I don't quite agree that it did so on a higher moral ground than Klingons or Romulans would have done. Using the Shedai to destroy that planet in a mere experiment (the only aim can be to get another, better weapon), tolerating hurting the Tholians by using the trapped Shedai... very ambiguous and something I'd expect of the Romulans perhaps or maybe the Cardassians. Definitely not an ethical approach to that research. But again, that's idealistic me speaking. ;)

So the problem with Vanguard was that the decision-makers didn't feel they'd be held accountable because they were acting in the shadows. If the whole thing had been out in the open from the start, if it hadn't been poisoned by all the secrets and lies, then the pervasive public scrutiny would've compelled a more ethical approach.

Thanks - that's exactly what I was awkwardly getting at! :)
 
Brin argues that the best defense against the risk of abuse of the surveillance state, or the risk of state and corporate corruption in general, is with sousveillance -- watching from below rather than above, the people watching the state and the corporations just as pervasively and constantly as they watch us, so that everything is out in the open.

Undoubtedly. That said, and by no means disagreeing with Brin's conclusion:

One of the problems with relying on this defence is that many people simply won't be watching. It's a similar dilemma to the issue faced by pacifists in a war-like environment: when you're not "like that", you can't compete with those who are unless you make unnatural compromises. To retain peace and balance the pacifist must often resort to pursuit of military parity, even as they work in other, more palatable ways to change the nature of their environment to a less warlike one. Which is why Federation starships are heavily armed, of course. The non-compromising pacifist is usually out-competed, because it simply isn't in their nature to want to push back. Similarly, it's not in some people's nature to watch others - they're not inclined to do so, because they're just not interested in what other people are doing or they simply trust others to get on with their lives as they themselves do, and so they're vulnerable to those who are inclined to monitor and judge. Also, some types of people are more inclined to monitor than others due to their default position within the group dynamics, and so imbalance sets in as they ensure the institutions are working to their benefit, in a way with which others can't compete. As well as the pacifist analogy, I'd say it's also similar to the age-old refutal - one I use myself - to the "power corrupts" idea. It's not that political power inherently corrupts, it's that those who are driven to seek it are far more likely to use it to harmful ends or be corrupted by it than people who aren't, because the people with no interest in dominating or exploiting others aren't inclined to look for influence or power to begin with, and those who do have that interest are.

Basically, the state and the corporations will always have the advantage - not only in available resources but in mindset. Plus, the majority of people are accepting of authority, be it from those superior to them in a hierarchy either formal or implicit, or from the group, because to most people authority also stems from numbers and consensus. I've also observed that there is often a strong, almost fearful insistence on believing in the basic inviolability of the existing structures, to the extent that trying to shine a light on what's going on and suggesting that things aren't healthy or on the level causes the people to become aggressive and mocking. I know first hand what it's like to point at obvious and systematic corruption, dishonesty and infiltration only to have efforts at drawing attention to it ignored at best and often full-on attacked. I believe it's because people have an instinct to protect the tribe and the homestead and therefore aren't given to accepting the legitimacy of an arrow or even a dangerous look directed inward; only acting outward is judgement appropriate. In short, trying to create a society where people watch the institutions as the institutions watch them is nearly impossible when you're dealing with the group dynamics of most humans. So I'd claim.

So I agree with Brin's conclusion entirely, but I don't see it happening. One only has to observe the first modern society to make a true effort - indeed a noble and valiant effort - at creating such an open and balanced system and how quickly its success and prosperity worked against it as the usual dynamic reasserted itself with a vengeance.

So the problem with Vanguard was that the decision-makers didn't feel they'd be held accountable because they were acting in the shadows. If the whole thing had been out in the open from the start, if it hadn't been poisoned by all the secrets and lies, then the pervasive public scrutiny would've compelled a more ethical approach.

Agreed, so long as the public were a community and not a bloc (which the fictional UFP can be trusted to be, of course). Individuality is the basis of ethics. A group of many individuals in concert leads to the beneficial effect you describe, I'd imagine, but the more common ideological mob mentality doesn't. Numbers mean nothing. A million people can be united in making a poor and unethical decision just as simply as two, indeed in my opinion more simply. What you describe works because of the crisscrossed webs of scrutiny from many angles, preventing social clotting. The idea - which isn't stated here, I should clarify, but might be read into the conclusion by some - that "the public" or people as a whole are "ethical" - that is, work in accordance with a given idea of ethics - strikes me as nice in theory, but falls into the tribal assumption that numeracy equates to a positive, and consequently that numbers relate to enhanced likelihood of truth or reason. "This is what everyone believes, so it's obviously true", failing to account for the fact that many people will believe it because many other people believe it. Solidarity is valued, unrepentant dissidence frowned upon - those outside one's community are permitted to be alien, but those on the inside are not.

If a given public is a true forum for openness and transparency, it will work brilliantly to check or balance the scheming of the few, I agree; but the public is often more inclined to accept a particular narrative, its flavour determined by the same people who are entrenched in the political, legal, educational and economic structures, in which case the crowd becomes a body for justifying the decisions of those people after being fed the appropriate spin. In the UFP I can't see that being the case - they're too diverse within a strong unity, not monolithic yet atomized as people in reality are.
 
These questions aren't meant to be easily answered, and in fact we decided to leave certain moral summations untallied at the end of the saga, so that readers could decide for (and debate among) themselves whether Starfleet's efforts had, in fact, been worth the cost.

Mission accomplished in my case - I thought about this all through my re-read.

Okay, so Nimbus III ended up a mess. Does that mean the effort to maintain back channels of communication wasn't worth it? Or was it a necessary step toward keeping the peace?

yeah, I was kind of taking a potshot at Nimbus III. Given the end of ST V there's definitely a dialogue going on - and of course a lot happened with Gorkon and his efforts though the situation with Chang didn't really work out either.

So the Tholians were willing to go to the mat to contain the Meta-genome and other products of the Shedai. Does that mean Starfleet should have trusted the Tholians to contain any potential Klingon or Romulan threat stemming from those technologies? Heck, at the outset, Starfleet had no idea why the Tholians even cared about any of this.

What was also interesting was the Tholians seemed fine with Starfleet caging up the Shedai as they did - in fact they pretty much say it's better that somebody levelheaded like the Federation handled it - and they also say that they'll only take action if the Federation tries to weaponize the Shedai - which of course they do against Ming's (and eventually Nogura's) best wishes.

In the end, Starfleet and the Federation made some amazing scientific advances because of their work in the Taurus Reach, and it can be argued they did so with greater ethical and moral probity than the Klingons or Romulans might have been expected to do. Isn't that worth the cost of the mission?

Nogura tells Ming (you wrote this so you of course know) that if he and the other members of the Starfleet science team refuse their orders they'll just get shipped away and Starfleet will send in another group of scientists that'll likely be less ethically and morally concerned with the tests so it'll just get done anyway.

One thing I only noticed upon re-read was that the original tests w/ the civilian science team ended up destroying Ceti Alpha 5 and then after Marcus and team refuse to continue the experiments they're sent to Regula. That 'mistake' by unknowingly destroying those planets when they didn't understand how the mironadae artifact worked ended up killing some of those scientists if they were around when Khan came around to Regula One.

But without getting spoiler-y for later 24th century novels it's possible the ends justify the means - and those were pretty significant ends.

Just because the Genesis technology is buried now, that doesn't mean it will stay that way forever....

interesting...

I know a lot of bad came from the whole Taurus Reach 'experiment', but the salvation of an entire race, one of the founding Federation members no less, makes it all worth it in my eyes. Although the price was a stiff one ...

Yeah, I agree - that'd be the lone saving grace in my mind - and it's probably enough.

So the problem with Vanguard was that the decision-makers didn't feel they'd be held accountable because they were acting in the shadows. If the whole thing had been out in the open from the start, if it hadn't been poisoned by all the secrets and lies, then the pervasive public scrutiny would've compelled a more ethical approach.

Particularly relevant since the Admiral that orders Nogura to order the science team to continue testing with the Shedai array is absolutely responsible for the deterioration of the entire situation. The Tholians were fine with standing pat had the Federation not continued testing of the planet-destroyer tech.
 
As for good to come of Project Vaguard, I was struck by just how incredible the possibilities of Shedai technology being studied and deciphered were when reading A Ceremony of Losses. Lense and Pulaski and co suggest that they're only weeks away from breakthroughs that could fortify immune systems and extend healthy life to an incredible degree. That capability is within reach, with the only ethical roadbumps being hypothetical and avoidable through exactly the sort of transparency Christopher discussed - that is, simple "what if someone used the technology poorly?" - and not at all standing between the present circumstance and the attainability of those benefits. This is such a colossal waste it's almost shocking. Then again, the Federation isn't interested in taking a peek to try and prevent the extinction of one of its own founding members, so there we are.
 
Just because the Genesis technology is buried now, that doesn't mean it will stay that way forever....

And it did come back in the Genesis Wave books, so we've seen first-hand what can happen when Genesis technology is available to those who lack the desire or capacity to use it with responsibility to others.

(I also suspect, though no such connection has yet been made, that the Genesis Wave incident pissed off the Tholians so much that they declared the Federation enemy number one. It's notable that in the SCE stories or Gateways, set in 2376, relations between Tholia and the Federation seem cordial enough, but by mid-2377 the Tholians are backing Selelvia in its short-lived campaign against the UFP and clearly just want to give the Federation a kicking - and as of 2381 Tezrene is nattering on about "the sins of the Taurus Reach" again. So what changed between 2376 and 2377? We actually have an entirely sensible answer - the boundary of 2376-2377 is, after all, when the Genesis Wave occurs. No wonder Federation irresponsibility in the Shedai Sector is all the Tholians are talking about. The grudge just got a massive shot in the arm).
 
Yes. Transparency instead of secrecy. It would make an awful lot of things a lot less dangerous. Like fracking and GMO foods.
 
I am actually of the opinion that at the end of the Vanguard series, when the Tholians sent a quarter of their fleet to destroy Vanguard and the Shedai contained therein after the Federation began experimenting with their power to remotely destroy planets, they demonstrated that they, of all galactic powers, had the most responsible approach to the Taurus Reach and its terrors.

Shedai technology can have clear benefits, but it can also have very significant detrimental effects. It's literally possible for people suitably equipped to devastate entire sectors with post-Shedai technology. Recent events may lead to the renewed study of Shedai data by various powers, in the Federation and among the Tholians and elsewhere, but everyone is also going to be aware of the technology's capability to unleash apocalyptic destruction. This is going to be very closely watched indeed.
 
Closely watched - all for it.

But I wouldn't say the Tholians had the most responsible approach... responsible to me means being careful and watchful and aware of all the directions research can take, even draw lines that are not to be crossed - but not preventing the research in the first place because it might bring dangerous results.

In the case of VAN, Starfleet proved that their handling of the Shedai wasn't responsible, blowing up planets without actually knowing what they're doing. So, the Tholians' reaction was a logical one in the end, but they tried to destroy everything to do with the Shedai from the beginning of the tale. That's not being responsible but being frightened.
 
Claudia is right. Any technology has detrimental applications as well as positive ones. If we abandoned every technology that posed risks, we'd never have started using fire and we'd still be living in prehistoric conditions. It's like Brin said in the article I quoted -- it isn't the technology that's the danger, it's the development of it in secret without peer review or oversight. In real life, open debate about the ethical problems raised by new technologies is a vital part of the scientific process and helps lead to ethical standards for their use. That is what's responsible -- figuring out how to use a technology constructively and guard against its dangers and abuses. Just destroying a technology is avoiding responsibility, not taking it. It's lazy and cowardly and may actually do more harm than good, because you're not just protecting people from the damage the technology could do, you're depriving them of all the good it could do, all the lives it could save or improve. We didn't deal with the dangers of fire by abandoning its use, because that would be stupid and self-defeating. We dealt with it by learning to manage its risks. That is responsibility.
 
Closely watched - all for it.

But I wouldn't say the Tholians had the most responsible approach... responsible to me means being careful and watchful and aware of all the directions research can take, even draw lines that are not to be crossed - but not preventing the research in the first place because it might bring dangerous results.

The Federation, a civlization known for its responsible and ethical approach towards expansion and scientific development, was so easily corrupted by the promise of Shedai power that it was willing to do something so insanely risky as use Shedai energies to destroy planets at distances of hundreds of light-years. I wonder if any of the Trek civilizations would or could have behaved responsibly when faced with the promise of god-like power.
 
But that's exactly it - it wasn't the *Federation*, it was a few secretive people at Starfleet Command who made the decisions to do the research and hide it. In other matters, the distinction between Starfleet and the Federation concerning legal issues came up quite a bit in the later VAN-books, so there is precedent that Federation and Starfleet are not to be used synonymously. There's more to the Federation than its military and intelligence branch, which by its very nature with a strict chain of command and need to know basis doesn't really invite open discussion and ethical debates. And power corrupts, doesn't have to be the power of the Shedai. Therefore it's even more important not to contain research into such a well of (potentially dangerous) knowledge to a few, but to spread it as far as possible.
 
But that's exactly it - it wasn't the *Federation*, it was a few secretive people at Starfleet Command who made the decisions to do the research and hide it. In other matters, the distinction between Starfleet and the Federation concerning legal issues came up quite a bit in the later VAN-books, so there is precedent that Federation and Starfleet are not to be used synonymously. There's more to the Federation than its military and intelligence branch, which by its very nature with a strict chain of command and need to know basis doesn't really invite open discussion and ethical debates. And power corrupts, doesn't have to be the power of the Shedai. Therefore it's even more important not to contain research into such a well of (potentially dangerous) knowledge to a few, but to spread it as far as possible.

Exactly. That's just what David Brin was saying about Michael Crichton's books -- it's not the fact that the research is done at all that makes it unethical, it's that it's done by people who deliberately conceal their efforts from those who could provide ethical oversight. People misbehave less when they're being watched.
 
Of course, the problem is that even if you have a system of widescale accountability and information diffusion, it's always going to come down to who physically controls the infrastructure these technologies are built on. Then the question becomes, how do you put adequate safeguards in place to ensure that the particular persons controlling that infrastructure won't usurp their authority in violation of the law?

To put it another way -- if research into Shedai technology means you end up with someone who has a Big Red Button (metaphorically speaking) that can blow up any planet they want across the known galaxy... how do you make sure that the people guarding the Big Red Button don't decide to press it? How do you make sure no would-be fascist in Starfleet doesn't press the Button, blow up Earth, and declare himself Federation President-for-Life?

Troubling side-note: So far as we know, nobody in Starfleet Command was ever held responsible for the abuses in the final novel -- particularly for ordering the murder of Federation citizen Cervantes Quinn.

Less troubling side-note: It is not that the Federation as a whole, or Federation Council as a whole, did not want to use the UFP's info on the Shedai to save the Andorians. We don't know the details of why President Bacco didn't share any Shedai info with the Andorians between 2382 and 2385, but we do know that even some notable Federation hawks such as Councillor Cort Enaren wanted to share the info. We also know that both the UFP and the Andorians seemed unaware yet that the Andorian species was reaching a population tipping point until around 2385. Once that information reached the Federation, however, it was explicitly the decision of President Pro Tempore Ishan Anjar not to share Shedai info with the Andorians to try to cure their reproductive crisis -- a decision motivated by his desire to use the Andorians as a boogeyman in his election campaign, by his desire to punish Andor for having seceded and scare other Members who might think of seceding, and by his desire to make the Andorians desperate enough for the Shedai info that they would come crawling back on his terms after he won the election.
 
We don't know the details of why President Bacco didn't share any Shedai info with the Andorians between 2382 and 2385,

I think her reasons are fairly clear - they seceded from the Federation. I wouldn't have shared such highly classified information with them either.
 
But that's exactly it - it wasn't the *Federation*, it was a few secretive people at Starfleet Command who made the decisions to do the research and hide it. In other matters, the distinction between Starfleet and the Federation concerning legal issues came up quite a bit in the later VAN-books, so there is precedent that Federation and Starfleet are not to be used synonymously. There's more to the Federation than its military and intelligence branch, which by its very nature with a strict chain of command and need to know basis doesn't really invite open discussion and ethical debates. And power corrupts, doesn't have to be the power of the Shedai. Therefore it's even more important not to contain research into such a well of (potentially dangerous) knowledge to a few, but to spread it as far as possible.

Exactly. That's just what David Brin was saying about Michael Crichton's books -- it's not the fact that the research is done at all that makes it unethical, it's that it's done by people who deliberately conceal their efforts from those who could provide ethical oversight. People misbehave less when they're being watched.
Now this is unethical, but *cough cough* Commander Jefferson Briggs with his love of catoms.
 
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