Lytton - Resurrection of the Daleks/Attack of the Cybermen

[Joel_Kirk]

So, the 6th Doctor says something to the effect, in "Attack of the Cybermen," that is misjudged Lytton. Yet, he knew Lytton was a mercenary from a previous Dalek encounter, "Resurrection of the Daleks," and the audience saw Lytton kill a couple of people - very possibly innocents - in that Dalek encounter.

I personally never understood how he was 'misjudged.' Even though Lytton sacrificed himself towards the end of "Attack of the Cybermen" - and I think it was revealed that he was working for the side that was against the Cybermen - he wasn't exactly a 'hero,' but maybe an 'anti-hero.' He was one who seemed to work and kill for the side that would pay him best.

I never understood what was 'misjudged' about Lytton. The character was portrayed and acted in such a way that I, as the viewer, hated the man. This showed that both the actor and the writer(s) and possibly directors did their job. However, that line tries to make the viewer - me - 'feel' something for Lytton.

I don't.

Even though he sacrificed himself, Lytton kind of reaped what he sowed.

 

[Stevil2001]

Well, if the Doctor was thinking of him as 'villain,' then 'anti-hero' is a step up.

It should be pointed out pedantically that the Doctor never even meets Lytton in Resurrection of the Daleks to form a judgment of him.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Well, if the Doctor was thinking of him as 'villain,' then 'anti-hero' is a step up.

It should be pointed out pedantically that the Doctor never even meets Lytton in Resurrection of the Daleks to form a judgment of him.

^^
Good point. He - the Doctor - only knows Lytton as an intergalactic thief.

 

[diankra]

There's some questions/inconsistencies left over across the two stories that are problematical; they come down to:

1) In Resurrection, Lytton is the head of a group of human troopers working for the Daleks, who are creating programmed duplicates of human beings. Are Lytton and his men mercenaries who are working for the Daleks willingly for whatever reasons, or duplicates of captured humans who've been programmed to work for them?
2) In Attack Lytton is confirmed as being a mercenary, who's working for the Cryons against the Cybermen. Did the Cryons hire him when he was stranded on 1980s Earth by replying to his distress signal? Or was he working for them before becoming stranded there after he was distracted by his work for the Daleks (and if so, was that because the Daleks offered him more so he put the Cryon job on hold, or that the Daleks captured and duplicated him, but once stranded his real personality regained control and he went back to his previous commitments)?
Either almost works, but neither quite does...

 

[Guy Gardener]

In the new episode today... Right at the beginning... I wondered... "Shit, is that you Lytton?"

 

[Allyn Gibson]

In the new episode today... Right at the beginning... I wondered... "Shit, is that you Lytton?"

No, Maurice Colbourne died a while back.

I liked the character, but I agree that trying to make sense of his history -- and his history with the Doctor -- is problematic.

 

[Count Zero]

So, the 6th Doctor says something to the effect, in "Attack of the Cybermen," that is misjudged Lytton. Yet, he knew Lytton was a mercenary from a previous Dalek encounter, "Resurrection of the Daleks," and the audience saw Lytton kill a couple of people - very possibly innocents - in that Dalek encounter.

"Attack of the Cybermen" is a mess, anyway. We were also supposed to sympathise with the Cryons but then, all of a sudden they explain (supposedly in secret but in loud voices while Peri is standing nearby) that their plans involve destroying Earth. Yet, Peri never tells the Doctor and insists on saving them and they're kind of good again all of a sudden.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

So, the 6th Doctor says something to the effect, in "Attack of the Cybermen," that is misjudged Lytton. Yet, he knew Lytton was a mercenary from a previous Dalek encounter, "Resurrection of the Daleks," and the audience saw Lytton kill a couple of people - very possibly innocents - in that Dalek encounter.

"Attack of the Cybermen" is a mess, anyway. We were also supposed to sympathise with the Cryons but then, all of a sudden they explain (supposedly in secret but in loud voices while Peri is standing nearby) that their plans involve destroying Earth. Yet, Peri never tells the Doctor and insists on saving them and they're kind of good again all of a sudden.

Damn, I didn't catch that.

I do agree, the episode is somewhat problematic and not as tight as it should be. (I think I give it a pass because of Peri and her outfit...)

 

[Stevil2001]

Attack is a disaster.

Lytton, however, is awesome.

 

[Sindatur]

Isn't the Doctor's apology to Lytton, based solely upon Attack of the Cybermen? Lytton asked the Doctor to trust him, and he didn't due to their history (rather than trusting the actions he saw in Attack), and that pretty much led to Lytton's conversion into a Cyberman?

That's not to say the Doctor didn't have a reason to mistrust Lytton, he certainly did. But, I think the apology was for not trusting in what he saw this time, rather than judging based upon history

 

[Guy Gardener]

If the Daleks are not around, if the Daleks have not given him orders, I can see this bioduplicate construct running on a default Lytton autopilot, whether that means that he doesn't know that he is a bioduplicate or that he knows that he only gets to be a "happy person" and the master of his destiny when there are no Daleks around to give him orders that he must follow because he is loyal, so he is on purpose avoiding Dalek society so that he can be a happy person and the master of his destiny.

It's a loophole that I find a thousand times more beleivable than the Daleks hiring Mercenaries and honoring the contracts with the mercenaries that they have hired.

Although, the Ogrons seemed to work well for... Were they slaves or employees?

 

[diankra]

Now I think about it, in Attack I think Lytton says "Not from choice," after the Doctor says "Last time we met he was working for the Daleks..." which supports the idea that he's a duplicate who reverts to his natural personality once stranded.
Of course, a wicked idea would be that the real Lytton let the Daleks make a duplicate of him in return for payment and was still out there, which would have been a nice mind-warping way to bring the character back if Maurice Colbourne hadn't died in '89.
Great actor - superb as Coker in the 1981 Day of the Triffids, and as Kline in Philip Martin's Gangsters. Was in the final auditions to play Blake, which might have given a far more tortured aspect to the character than Gareth Thomas's almost-heroic take, I suspect.

 

[Sindatur]

^Yea, I understand that Blake was an extremist first, but, Gareth Thomas didn't really play Blake "More Extremist, than Hero". Maurice Coburn could've played a much more Extremist Focused character, than Gareth played him. Some of Avon's reactions to Blake's extremism felt overblown, because Gareth was playing him more heroic, than Avon's View of him (Which is, IMHO,a valid to play it)

(Not that there's anything wrong with Gareth's interpretation, just saying the Coburn portrayal could be a great alternative take on the character)

 

[diankra]

Yeah, for years I took it as read that it was down to Gareth Thomas's performance that Blake wasn't quite the clear-cut 'Errol Flynn' hero that Terry Nation supposedly wanted. But the darker side of the character is there in Terry's scripts, and it's clear from the list of the actors who were checked out (Colbourne, Warren Clarke) that Gareth Thomas was one of the closest to a 'conventional hero'.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I wouldn't say that he's worse in the new audio stories, but the crew certainly vents their disrespect more than they used to, which combined with the fine month to month continuity, and direction...

I'm more than willing to have a listening party, if anyone wants to come over to mine.

Light up the BBQ, buy a few bottles of wine.

Very pleasant.

 

[Starkers]

I don’t know, I think the fact that Thomas is more of a clean cut hero type actually works to the show’s advantage. Firstly you can see why the masses would follow him; he’s eloquent and accessible and has a natural authority. Secondly it plays with the fact that he is a fanatic because he (and most of the characters) doesn’t realise he is. Blake thinks he’s a noble man, a hero, the fact that he’s quite comfortable sending people to their deaths, that he’s willing to do deals with drug dealers and the scum of the universe if it means defeating the Federation, the fact that if the Andromedans hadn’t shown up he’d have been quite happy to devastate the climates of multiple inhabited worlds by blowing up Star One…none of these things ever seem to register with him as remotely ‘bad’, they’re all necessary evils (and he probably doesn’t even think of them as evil.)

Even his action in potentially marooning himself in Trial was less about nobility than a passive aggressive tactic to get the others back following his banner (although I’m sure he believed it was the former). In fact for all his grittiness in ‘Blake’ I think, even at the end, Blake didn’t fully see who he was.

Maurice Colbourne was a fine actor, but I think if he’d played Blake the entire dynamic of the show would have shifted, certainly the interactions between Blake and Avon would have taken on a different tone, and I don’t think this would have been for the benefit of the series. As it stands Avon’s reactions to Blake’s fanaticism might seem extreme, but if Blake had been a more obvious fanatic you would start to wonder why anyone would follow him, whereas the version of the show we got it’s quite easy to imagine whole armies following Blake, it also plays up Avon’s frustration at being the only one who can see what Roj is really like (actually I think Jenna does too, at least in Series A, she just chooses to believe the hype—this frustrates Avon even more ).

Maurice Colbourne as Tarrant might have been a better fit (although I really like Pacey in the role if I’m honest) or even as Travis but, even though Blake will never be my favourite character, I think Gareth was well cast.

 

[publiusr]

Attack is a disaster.

Lytton, however, is awesome.

He won't be playing a piano....gruesome