You have super smart and super physical people, and yet had to resort to naked violence in order to take over the world? In this celebrity obsessed culture of ours, they wouldn't need to lift a finger in order to manipulate both the people and governments to do their bidding. In my mind, I see Khan working up through the ranks, securing alliances amongst the rich and powerful, getting elected to office, putting in loyalist into place while using his superior intellect to meet the needs of the people, and then using the good will of the people to change India's government to become absolute ruler. And if there is an opposition, eliminate them using the media and the law to do so. I mean, there are normal people now who seem to be able to get away with it (i.e. Chavez, Castro, Putin, etc.). So while I can understand the Augments fighting each other out of ego, getting to that point seems much easier than what has been depicted in the 'Trek franchise.
We're the Augments really dumb?
- Thread starter dswynne1
- Start date
First, misspelling words is one of life's simple pleasures.
Second, in my experience, people who need to tell you that they're smart likely aren't. We only know Khan supposedly had superior intelligence because he said so out loud.
While obviously possessing a excellent memory, there no real indication that Khan was atypically smart.
Second, in my experience, people who need to tell you that they're smart likely aren't. We only know Khan supposedly had superior intelligence because he said so out loud.
While obviously possessing a excellent memory, there no real indication that Khan was atypically smart.
Whose to.say they did not rise.to political power thru elections and then battle each other?
This is the wonderful world of writers whose imagination does not match their premise.
I imagine right after the war ends, Bashir and the Jack Pack realize they forgot to carry a one somewhere, and actually they had no chance of ever losing the war.
I imagine right after the war ends, Bashir and the Jack Pack realize they forgot to carry a one somewhere, and actually they had no chance of ever losing the war.
From the actual descriptions of the Eugenics Wars, it doesn't appear as if the supermen taking power would have been a violent event at all. They just did it - and then there was superman interfighting and, supposedly, muggles fighting against the surviving superman governments, until the last (Khan's) was ousted.
For all we know, Khan's was merely the last "public" superman government, and several of the victors of that final war were in fact supermen themselves. They just opted to improve mankind in some less conspicuous manner from that point on.
From "Space Seed", we might deduce that Khan did possess more mental skills than just the ability to speed-read. He did survive the adventure pretty well despite being beaten to submission. How did he arrange for a private paradise of his own, with one of Kirk's better-looking officerettes as his wife? Smooth talking might be one of his true fortes.
Timo Saloniemi
For all we know, Khan's was merely the last "public" superman government, and several of the victors of that final war were in fact supermen themselves. They just opted to improve mankind in some less conspicuous manner from that point on.
It's pretty difficult to tell when you only meet the person after he has just been dragged out of his bed, and then again after he has fermented insane revenge for about two decades...
From "Space Seed", we might deduce that Khan did possess more mental skills than just the ability to speed-read. He did survive the adventure pretty well despite being beaten to submission. How did he arrange for a private paradise of his own, with one of Kirk's better-looking officerettes as his wife? Smooth talking might be one of his true fortes.
Timo Saloniemi
The Augments are probably super-intelligent. After all Khan worked out how to run the Enterprise from looking at some manuals.
Its how you've been trained to use your intelligence that often determines how successful you will be in life. I think Khan has been trained more to rely on this 'charisma and leadership genes' than just raw intelligence.
Its how you've been trained to use your intelligence that often determines how successful you will be in life. I think Khan has been trained more to rely on this 'charisma and leadership genes' than just raw intelligence.
There are different kinds of intelligence -- the ability to absorb new material quickly, which is what most of the augments and Khan seemed to focus on; the ability to think quickly under pressure, and the ability to think strategically, as you are suggesting. The Augments of the Enterprise era were not strategic thinkers. One gets the feeling that Khan might have been one to play chess or study military strategy, but I wouldn't call any of his plans intellectually impressive. I think it's difficult for writers to convey the kind of subtle manipulation and long-term planning a genuinely superior being might possess. Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent and the first resort of lazy writers.
I guess the best way to portray superior intellect is to create situations where the Brain Man is a definite underdog. Him pulling off fairly routine "thinking tasks" will then come off as superior.
Khan was thawed out after having lost an empire, then put on a hellhole of a planet with just rags to wear to the daily sandblasting and more sand to eat when returning to the metal-sheet shed of a home. He came close to winning against great odds. In the other timeline, he was made the pawn of a mighty intel organization, and wrapped that around his little finger in no time flat. That at the end of the day he merely did as well as the heroes in any adventure is what makes it all seem so unimpressive, but the heroes normally aren't such underdogs - even though they sometimes whine as if they were.
Timo Saloniemi
Khan was thawed out after having lost an empire, then put on a hellhole of a planet with just rags to wear to the daily sandblasting and more sand to eat when returning to the metal-sheet shed of a home. He came close to winning against great odds. In the other timeline, he was made the pawn of a mighty intel organization, and wrapped that around his little finger in no time flat. That at the end of the day he merely did as well as the heroes in any adventure is what makes it all seem so unimpressive, but the heroes normally aren't such underdogs - even though they sometimes whine as if they were.
Timo Saloniemi
I think the biggest hinderance that Khan and the ENT Augments had is that they were removed from the times they lived in. As intellegent as they were Khan was still displaced in time and the ENT-Augs were raised in isolation. Had they been immersed in the cultures, times, technologies, politics of the eras they were trying to concur, they probably would have had the same level of success as they apparently had on Earth in the 80s.
It's really just a failure of writing. It's one thing to tell us somebody is super-intelligent and it's another to convince us. Silence of the Lambs convinces us that Hannibal Lectar is super-intelligent, and Space Seed fails to do it with Khan.
That's not part of the dialogue in "Space Seed" or TWoK.
According to those two, Khan was the last of the superman tyrants to be overthrown, but we don't even learn whether the was among the initial lot of "petty" tyrants; he may have stepped in at a later stage, as his buzzword was "unity". If his gig was unification of preexisting superman nations, then this probably didn't involve elections, but it need not have involved "savagery", either. (We know there were "no massacres" and "no wars" committed or initiated by him, according to the history books.)
As for ST:ID, pretty much everything said there is likely to have been a lie. In "Space Seed", Khan found sympathizers aboard the Enterprise and was willing to talk quite freely; in ST:ID, everybody was his enemy, in one way or another. And everybody defining or describing him had an evil agenda.
(Also, in "Space Seed", Khan was just out of the bottle, and perhaps a bit space-happy for the experience. In ST:ID, he would have been bringing himself up to speed on scheming and plotting for several years already. What he would say and do would be a bit different as the result, too.)
Timo Saloniemi
According to those two, Khan was the last of the superman tyrants to be overthrown, but we don't even learn whether the was among the initial lot of "petty" tyrants; he may have stepped in at a later stage, as his buzzword was "unity". If his gig was unification of preexisting superman nations, then this probably didn't involve elections, but it need not have involved "savagery", either. (We know there were "no massacres" and "no wars" committed or initiated by him, according to the history books.)
As for ST:ID, pretty much everything said there is likely to have been a lie. In "Space Seed", Khan found sympathizers aboard the Enterprise and was willing to talk quite freely; in ST:ID, everybody was his enemy, in one way or another. And everybody defining or describing him had an evil agenda.
(Also, in "Space Seed", Khan was just out of the bottle, and perhaps a bit space-happy for the experience. In ST:ID, he would have been bringing himself up to speed on scheming and plotting for several years already. What he would say and do would be a bit different as the result, too.)
Timo Saloniemi
They're strongly emotionnal and blinded by their strong egos. We see in Space Seeds how much Khan can be charming and cunning, but we also see how much he can be impulsive. Space Seed was about supermen who are in fact not so superior.
So yeah, his abilites allowed him to learn fast about the Enterprise and to ensure the survival of his group on the planet, but his ass has been kicked because he wasn't perfect. Havint superior abilities doesn't mean you're the best.
Yuo fael.
How so? Khan has both superior charm and superior impulsiveness!
There's no such thing as "perfect". Khan got his ass kicked because he wasn't superior enough; doesn't mean he wasn't superior in absolute terms. Khan was superior in everything up to and including unarmed combat; his luck ended with Kirk having the inside information needed to turn that into asymmetric armed combat...
Well, it sort of does, by definition. It's just that "May the best man win" is often a futile suggestion, especially outside the concept of fair game.
Timo Saloniemi
Khan wanted to execute Kirk. He does this by putting him in a decompression hatch and slowly lowering the oxygen, but not leaving any guards or continuous monitoring. It's hard to defend his intelligence.
Maybe it's sort of a situation like John Hamm's character in 30 Rock. Everybody always told him he was great at everything because he was good looking. Because the only other explanation is bad writing.
There's a difference between saying somebody is superior at something and saying they are a superior person.
Maybe it's sort of a situation like John Hamm's character in 30 Rock. Everybody always told him he was great at everything because he was good looking. Because the only other explanation is bad writing.
There's a difference between saying somebody is superior at something and saying they are a superior person.
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