20 most Cringeworthy Scenes in the New Trek films???

[Hypaspist]

Plus he didn't walk around holding his had just to look like a badass. He isn't bad once Into Darkness actually gets going, so I don't know why they felt the need to make him revert to juvenile pre-Academy Kirk at the beginning of the movie.

Picard went against the grain more times than Kirk did. Even when they portrayed Picard as a kind of cowboy in Tapestry, it was part of showing exactly how he learned temperance and judgement. There was never any point at which Kirk was a completely hair on fire rebel like they did multiple times in the new movies. I hope they finish his growing up arc sooner because it makes his character irritating and unlikeable. It also means that it's going to be harder for him to be believable as the captain that is going to be respected by everyone, including his enemies.

 

[Ovation]

Because human males who are mature adults in their thirties are never irresponsible and rebellious in their twenties.

In TOS Kirk referred to himself as "the book with legs', he reported Ben Finney for a mistake he had made, he had regrets over his actions on the Farragut. All indications that he took his job very seriously even in his youth.

TOS Kirk's backstory, thin and improvised as it was, is actually a lot more interesting as an arc for the character than a lot of what was subsequently invented for him.

Plus he didn't walk around holding his had just to look like a badass. He isn't bad once Into Darkness actually gets going, so I don't know why they felt the need to make him revert to juvenile pre-Academy Kirk at the beginning of the movie.

Picard went against the grain more times than Kirk did. Even when they portrayed Picard as a kind of cowboy in Tapestry, it was part of showing exactly how he learned temperance and judgement. There was never any point at which Kirk was a completely hair on fire rebel like they did multiple times in the new movies. I hope they finish his growing up arc sooner because it makes his character irritating and unlikeable. It also means that it's going to be harder for him to be believable as the captain that is going to be respected by everyone, including his enemies.

Abrams' version of Kirk had a completely different upbringing than TOS Kirk. Nothing else needs to be presented to explain why the new Kirk didn't turn out to be a "stack of books with legs" or why he is much more of a "hair on fire rebel" than in TOS.

 

[Commishsleer]

Abrams' version of Kirk had a completely different upbringing than TOS Kirk. Nothing else needs to be presented to explain why the new Kirk didn't turn out to be a "stack of books with legs" or why he is much more of a "hair on fire rebel" than in TOS.

Presumably TOS Kirk made Captain because he deserved it.
Looks like Abrams Kirk made Captain because Pike admired George Kirk.

 

[BillJ]

Abrams' version of Kirk had a completely different upbringing than TOS Kirk. Nothing else needs to be presented to explain why the new Kirk didn't turn out to be a "stack of books with legs" or why he is much more of a "hair on fire rebel" than in TOS.

We shouldn't forget that this version of Kirk did finish the Academy in three years. So obviously he had to have been doing a lot of work even if we don't see it on screen. Plus, Prime Kirk seemed to have been bedding plenty of ladies in his twenties. Ruth, the little blond lab tech, Areel Shaw, Janet Wallace, Janet Lester, Carol Marcus. Jumping from bed to bed isn't a sign of being mature.

Then we add the cheating on the Kobayashi Maru test from TWOK and his actions during the body of TOS where he had a habit of bucking authority and Kirk may have set up a bit of a front for those around him while at the Academy. I certainly don't believe he just developed the habit of bucking authority once he got command of the Enterprise.

Presumably TOS Kirk made Captain because he deserved it.
Looks like Abrams Kirk made Captain because Pike admired George Kirk.

We obviously have no idea why Kirk made Captain in the Prime Timeline because that particular subject never was addressed in the series or movies.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Abrams' version of Kirk had a completely different upbringing than TOS Kirk. Nothing else needs to be presented to explain why the new Kirk didn't turn out to be a "stack of books with legs" or why he is much more of a "hair on fire rebel" than in TOS.

Presumably TOS Kirk made Captain because he deserved it.
Looks like Abrams Kirk made Captain because Pike admired George Kirk.

What about saving Earth and the entire Federation?

 

[Cyke101]

Abrams' version of Kirk had a completely different upbringing than TOS Kirk. Nothing else needs to be presented to explain why the new Kirk didn't turn out to be a "stack of books with legs" or why he is much more of a "hair on fire rebel" than in TOS.

Presumably TOS Kirk made Captain because he deserved it.
Looks like Abrams Kirk made Captain because Pike admired George Kirk.

What about saving Earth and the entire Federation?

I do like that the second time he made Captain, it was part of the big bad's scheme, so at least the outlandish promotion was more intentional this time. And then he saved the day again anyway, proving without a doubt that he had the right stuff.

 

[BigJake]

Abrams' version of Kirk had a completely different upbringing than TOS Kirk.

It seems to frustrate you that repeating this never seems to persuade anyone, but there's a reason for that. (I know we've done this before but I figure it's always worth a shot.) It's not like nobody has noticed they have different backgrounds; it's just that different upbringing or no, some people find the NuTrek version less compelling as a character regardless. Whether there are in-universe justifications for the differences really just doesn't matter to that assessment.

 

[Claudia]

it's just that different upbringing or no, some people find the NuTrek version less compelling as a character regardless.

Well, but complaining about how original!Kirk is so much better and deserving and mature and what not doesn't change the fact that nu!Kirk only shares basic genetics with original!Kirk - and therefore differs from his original version more than any of the other characters.

So perhaps instead of comparing those two and finding one or the other lacking, nu!Kirk should be viewed as a new, original character perhaps...

FWIW, I can't stand nu!Spock's flat intonation or the wooden gestures.

 

[BigJake]

it's just that different upbringing or no, some people find the NuTrek version less compelling as a character regardless.

Well, but complaining about how original!Kirk is so much better and deserving and mature and what not doesn't change the fact that nu!Kirk only shares basic genetics with original!Kirk - and therefore differs from his original version more than any of the other characters.

So perhaps instead of comparing those two and finding one or the other lacking, nu!Kirk should be viewed as a new, original character perhaps...

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what the reasons are for the character being the way he is. The question of whether people find a character dramatically interesting or not -- or whether the reboot version more or less interesting than the old -- is separate from what the explanation for the character is. Some people seem to think that if they can just explain the character enough or justify him in sight of the Sacred Texts enough, they can change that and overcome the objections of Teh Doubters, and I think that's simply not going to happen because it doesn't work that way.

(EDIT: To try to avoid confusion here, yes of course I noted above that I found the TOS Kirk's implied character arc more interesting than the current one and that's true... but it's not actually a claim about the relative quality of the characters. And though it happens I do tend to prefer TOS Kirk in a lot of ways, and agree with some of what Hypaspist and Commish say, that's not directly about his backstory so much as it his about his performance and portrayal. For me personally, NuKirk actually does have likable qualities, just really not so much command-chair qualities for my money; the fact that his qualities can be explained by a different background doesn't change that.)

 

[Commishsleer]

Abrams' version of Kirk had a completely different upbringing than TOS Kirk. Nothing else needs to be presented to explain why the new Kirk didn't turn out to be a "stack of books with legs" or why he is much more of a "hair on fire rebel" than in TOS.

We shouldn't forget that this version of Kirk did finish the Academy in three years. So obviously he had to have been doing a lot of work even if we don't see it on screen. Plus, Prime Kirk seemed to have been bedding plenty of ladies in his twenties. Ruth, the little blond lab tech, Areel Shaw, Janet Wallace, Janet Lester, Carol Marcus. Jumping from bed to bed isn't a sign of being mature.

Then we add the cheating on the Kobayashi Maru test from TWOK and his actions during the body of TOS where he had a habit of bucking authority and Kirk may have set up a bit of a front for those around him while at the Academy. I certainly don't believe he just developed the habit of bucking authority once he got command of the Enterprise.

Presumably TOS Kirk made Captain because he deserved it.
Looks like Abrams Kirk made Captain because Pike admired George Kirk.

We obviously have no idea why Kirk made Captain in the Prime Timeline because that particular subject never was addressed in the series or movies.

In 'Court Martial' they go through Kirk's medals and honours which gives a hint to his Starfleet record.

Abrams' version of Kirk had a completely different upbringing than TOS Kirk. Nothing else needs to be presented to explain why the new Kirk didn't turn out to be a "stack of books with legs" or why he is much more of a "hair on fire rebel" than in TOS.

Presumably TOS Kirk made Captain because he deserved it.
Looks like Abrams Kirk made Captain because Pike admired George Kirk.

What about saving Earth and the entire Federation?

My problem is mainly Kirk getting to be First Officer just seemingly at Pike's whim. Maybe if they chucked in a few lines from another Admiral of how Kirk was the best command candidate they'd ever seen might have shown why Pike made the 'right' decision instead of just showing how Kirk was an arrogant jerk getting justifiably court martialled (or something) over the Kobyashi Maru test.

nuKirk just seemed to be at the right place at the right time too much for my liking.

I can't say I didn't want nuKirk to get command of the Enterprise but my sense of 'fairness' is troubled.

Saving the Earth is a pretty big thing so I let it go. Although it still looks like favouritism.

 

[BillJ]

In 'Court Martial' they go through Kirk's medals and honours which gives a hint to his Starfleet record.

I would imagine saving the planet would lead to quite a few accolades on its own.

 

[fireproof78]

Abrams' version of Kirk had a completely different upbringing than TOS Kirk.

It seems to frustrate you that repeating this never seems to persuade anyone, but there's a reason for that. (I know we've done this before but I figure it's always worth a shot.) It's not like nobody has noticed they have different backgrounds; it's just that different upbringing or no, some people find the NuTrek version less compelling as a character regardless. Whether there are in-universe justifications for the differences really just doesn't matter to that assessment.

This is definitely the aspect of nuTrek that is a personal variation. Regardless of the rest of the film, if the characters don't work, it seems that the movie is harder to get involved with for people.

For me, nuKirk is probably the most dynamic and interesting character, with Pike and McCoy being close seconds-Pike for his leadership qualities and the "proto-Kirk" that we see and McCoy because of the abrasive character and almost wise old man type of a feel.

nuKirk is interesting because his origination story speaks so closely to me. If there is one scene that annoys me with nuKirk, it is because it hits more closely to where I live.

While I understand the comparison between nuKirk and primeKirk I still feel that they are unfair because there is a maturing process that nuKirk must go through. But, that's just me, and I think that the third film will show a more mature Kirk who weighs decision with more care.

 

[Ovation]

Abrams' version of Kirk had a completely different upbringing than TOS Kirk.

It seems to frustrate you that repeating this never seems to persuade anyone, but there's a reason for that. (I know we've done this before but I figure it's always worth a shot.) It's not like nobody has noticed they have different backgrounds; it's just that different upbringing or no, some people find the NuTrek version less compelling as a character regardless. Whether there are in-universe justifications for the differences really just doesn't matter to that assessment.

To you.

Besides, you have missed the point (again). I was not arguing for or against the new version as more compelling than the old. I was responding to the tiresome complaints that the new version is different from the old, as if no reason existed for the differences. Of course, by omitting the rest of my post, you are free to argue a point I did not address (again).

 

[Franklin]

(EDIT: To try to avoid confusion here, yes of course I noted above that I found the TOS Kirk's implied character arc more interesting than the current one and that's true... but it's not actually a claim about the relative quality of the characters. And though it happens I do tend to prefer TOS Kirk in a lot of ways, and agree with some of what Hypaspist and Commish say, that's not directly about his backstory so much as it his about his performance and portrayal. For me personally, NuKirk actually does have likable qualities, just really not so much command-chair qualities for my money; the fact that his qualities can be explained by a different background doesn't change that.)

I do find it unfortunate that in the brief time (let's face it, the movie in 2016, then who knows if they'll be any more) we've been reintroduced to these characters, we have yet to see Kirk in full bloom at his finest. Four hours of what may be only six hours of movie time with this crew were spent on growing Kirk up. I'd love to have three or four movies featuring a TOS-style "large and in charge" Kirk. We didn't even really get that in the TOS movies.

However, I think a critical part of TOS Kirk's backstory is missing. How did this "positively grim" "stack of books with legs" who was apparently a stern and by the book instructor become the looser, freer, and less compliant Kirk we see in TOS? When did he start putting his own moral compass ahead of Starfleet regulations, and why?

It seems both Kirk's are moving to the same end, a confident, brilliant, and well-rounded commander with innate leadership abilities and great instincts, but the way we're seeing nuKirk get there is more compelling to me because we see the change occurring. Maybe because we see what's shaping him, and it isn't immediately bringing out his best, he is less likeable than the TOS Kirk we meet some time into his command. At the same time, that Kirk doesn't sound like much fun in his youth, or very likeable, either. Further, we have no idea what turned TOS Kirk into the Kirk we see in TOS. We can suppose, but perhaps the one great story not written about TOS Kirk was how he finally came to realize that completely structured and "by the book" was not the best way for him to lead.

 

[Sindatur]

Was it Kirk who called himself a "Stack of Book with Legs"? I could swear it was Gary Mitchell?

 

[BillJ]

Was it Kirk who called himself a "Stack of Book with Legs"? I could swear it was Gary Mitchell?

It was Mitchell. Kirk describes himself as "positively grim" in "Shore Leave" when talking about Finnegan. But he was probably a Freshman at that point and I'm sure some things changed as he grew comfortable with his surroundings.

 

[BigJake]

I was responding to the tiresome complaints that the new version is different from the old, as if no reason existed for the differences.

Except the complaints have nothing to do with whether reasons existed for the differences, so your response is a non sequitur. Which you can never seem to understand, but is true pretty much every time you do this. I'm just hopeful that on one of these outings you will actually work this out.

I mean, not this time, obviously. But I live in hope.

However, I think a critical part of TOS Kirk's backstory is missing. How did this "positively grim" "stack of books with legs" who was apparently a stern and by the book instructor become the looser, freer, and less compliant Kirk we see in TOS? When did he start putting his own moral compass ahead of Starfleet regulations, and why?

Very good questions. I think BillJ's theory that it was a side of himself that was always there but that he kept hidden, perhaps until he grew more confident and experienced, does have something to recommend it. The fully-realized Kirk we meet in the series has struck a balance between his drive for duty and achievement and his more human (and humane) side, and I usually think of the glimpses of past-Kirk we get are windows on what he was likely as he was learning this. (Another interesting question: was the infamous reprogramming of the Kobiyashi Maru simulator young-Kirk's "maverick" side coming out, or the "stack of books with legs'" obsessive need to solve the problem coming to the fore? Of course we know NuTrek's position on this one...)

 

[M'Sharak]

...

It seems to frustrate you that repeating this never seems to persuade anyone, but there's a reason for that. (I know we've done this before but I figure it's always worth a shot.) <snip<

...

Except the complaints have nothing to do with whether reasons existed for the differences, so your response is a non sequitur. Which you can never seem to understand, but is true pretty much every time you do this. I'm just hopeful that on one of these outings you will actually work this out.

I mean, not this time, obviously. But I live in hope.

It would have been possible to make the same points without the little personal digs, no? (And yes indeedy, we have done all of this before, right down to the part where I drop a hint to keep in mind which forum we're in. It's 'Post, not poster' in this one, please. )

 

[BigJake]

Right you are, sorry.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Was it Kirk who called himself a "Stack of Book with Legs"? I could swear it was Gary Mitchell?

It was Mitchell. Kirk describes himself as "positively grim" in "Shore Leave" when talking about Finnegan. But he was probably a Freshman at that point and I'm sure some things changed as he grew comfortable with his surroundings.

The same guy who was also described as being no "boy scout". So he's seems to have made different impressions on people.