8X02 "Into the Dalek" Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

[DWF]

I for one do not give a shit about these incredibly minor details, and am far more interested in the story of Clara and Danny. The domestic lives of the companions are vital to the show for me.

I don't disagree that Clara's personal life is vital. I question, however, its relevance in this episode. It's like Data as Frankenstein and Troi taking the Command test; these ideas are both good, but they don't belong in the same episode, and each takes away from time that might have been better spent on the other.

Getting Data off the ship was a handy way of paving the way for Troi's promotion though.

Fundamentally, I simply didn't buy any of the 31st-century characters because we never understood them as characters. Everything they did felt arbitrary to me. Heck, I don't even understand why the human leader let the Doctor go at the end; frankly, after the mayhem he caused, the initial instinct to execute the Doctor doesn't seem that unreasonable.

I'm not sure that taking time away from Danny Pink or Missy's storylines would've allowerd the other characters to have been fleshed out better though.

 

[tomalak301]

Oh and one other thing and this is more of a TV pet peeve. In one scene they are in this liquid substance and soaking wet. In the next scene they are completely dry. Just once I would love an explanation if they are going to do something like that. Almost took me out of the episode.

It was both explained in the episode and explained in the fourth post of this thread if you missed it the first time.

Thanks. There was a lot going on in the episode that yeah I probably missed it.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

Fantastic stuff, show is off to a great start.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Heck, I don't even understand why the human leader let the Doctor go at the end; frankly, after the mayhem he caused, the initial instinct to execute the Doctor doesn't seem that unreasonable.

"I gave it a shot, it didn't work out, it's a Dalek, what did you expect???"

And in the end it did work out (sort of): Rusty repelled the Dalek attack and (depending on that deleted scene near the end) either blew the Dalek saucer up in a suicide bombing or has become a Dalek-killing vigilante. Either way, they (mostly) survived and the Daleks are out of their hair (for now).

 

[JoeZhang]

Yes, by Clara actually... well 19th century Clara.

I also wished there was a moment she figured out Clara was actually a school teacher, and went "Wait, I am actually on a mission with a school teacher? An actual school teacher? Why not get some Roman soldiers and Greek philosophers while we're at it?"

em... she did?

 

[Sci]

My only issue with him is a general issue about Doctor Who since the revival. What's with all the mixed relationships on the show?

All... two of them? Rose/Mickey and Clara/Danny?

I don't have anything against them, but it just seems weird how common they are, like they're trying to hammer kids over the head with the idea.

If you didn't have anything against them, it wouldn't bother you and you wouldn't give a shit.

I mean, even a lot of the monsters/aliens are indulging it in it, take Vastra and Jenny for instance.

Okay, Vastra and Jenny, too. Or, rather, just Vastra and Jenny, arguably. I mean, what constitutes a "mixed" relationship anyway? Why is Clara/Danny a "mixed" relationship in the face of a marriage between a reptile and a mammal? Clara and Danny have different skin tones; Vastra and Jenny are different species.

Hell, if we're gonna talk species, then every relationship the Doctor's gotten into has been mixed. Rose/Doctor, Doctor/Martha, Doctor/Astrid, Doctor/Lady Christina, Doctor/Amy, and Doctor/Clara have all been mixed-species relationships. Does that bother you?

Just... no. If you didn't have a problem you wouldn't have seen the need to bring the topic up; it would have never occurred to you. Did you really think this question would get a good response here? Not every thought that enters your mind needs to be said out loud.

Why are you taking it as if it were some kind of offensive question?

Because the only reason to object to it is if you think there's something less valid about so-called "mixed" relationships than so-called "non-mixed" relationships.

Or more correctly, why are you so horrified about actually answering it? That says a lot more about people like you than it does people asking the question.

What, exactly, does it say, other than that the "people like us" thinking that "mixed" relationships are equally valid and that questioning this implies they are not?

What's wrong with asking about something the show is pushing so hard on the audience?

"Pushing so hard?"

Get real. There have been two notable relationships featuring characters of different socially-defined "races" (Mickey/Rose and Clara/Danny), and one between a white actress in lizard makeup and a white actress in standard makeup. The rest have been between actors of the same socially-defined "race," mostly white, with one between two black actors (Mickey/Martha).

That's not "pushing so hard."

Is England really that oppressed that they have to use a show aimed at children to try to overcome their racist bent?

Probably.

I for one do not give a shit about these incredibly minor details, and am far more interested in the story of Clara and Danny. The domestic lives of the companions are vital to the show for me.

I don't disagree that Clara's personal life is vital. I question, however, its relevance in this episode. It's like Data as Frankenstein and Troi taking the Command test; these ideas are both good, but they don't belong in the same episode, and each takes away from time that might have been better spent on the other.

I liked the mix, actually. It emphasized the contrast between the two parts of Clara's life.

 

[DimesDan]

Not worth quoting, but I'll address it anyway.

Relationships between different ethnic groups are a thing here, they're cool and they happen. That's why they occur in Doctor Who because they happen and they're cool.

 

[Samurai8472]

I really take a shining to the 12th doctor's "No BS" attitude"

I was already engaged in the performance when he was with that soldier at the beginning

"No. Hey not like that"

"No. No. Not like that. Not like that. GET IT RIGHT!"


He could have dumped blue on an asteroid and five seconds later brought coffee to Clara

 

[davejames]

Like the last episode, my reaction is "meh." There are parts of the 12th doctor I like and parts I don't. I like that he's more serious, calmer, and less manic and quirky than the previous two. However, while I like the dry humor, he comes off as a dick sometimes, like in his line about how the dead guy was on the top layer if they wanted to say a few words, and in his coldness to the female soldier who'd lost her brother.

You don't want a Doctor who strays too far into a-hole territory. Also, what's with the nonsense about him having a thing against soldiers? Not only is that offensive, don't the writers remember UNIT, and that Lethbridge-Stewart was a SOLDIER and a good friend of the Doctor's?

The idea of a good Dalek was cool, and I was pleasantly surprised that it didn't turn out to be a trick, just an accident of brain chemistry.

Eh, the previous Doctors used to come across like dicks all the time in the classic series. It was just a natural part of their persona.

And the rude anti-hero thing is nothing we haven't seen before, on shows like House or Sherlock (which people seemed to have no problem with). As long as we know that at heart this Doctor is still a good guy (and he clearly is, or he wouldn't have saved the soldier in the first place), then I don't see a problem with him being a bit mean and nasty on the surface.

And as others have said, this is not only a different Doctor, whose attitude towards the military might be a bit different. But this particular soldier had also proven she was way too blunt and aggressive to ever be a proper companion, being only really capable of following orders and shooting things. That's the kind of soldier I can easily see the Doctor not wanting to keep around him for long.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

em... she did?

I am not sure she did. I would have taken that "I am a teacher" bit as a joke if I were her.

And I certainly wouldn't have suspected Clara was an English teacher from pre-space era who casually wandered into a large-scale space battle from her high school closet right after class, while she was hitting on some cute person at school. The "I met a soldier named Pink" is misleading on her part, she didn't even meet him in the capacity of a soldier, and acted flippantly towards his previous job.

If I were Blue, I would have assumed Clara had been teaching in a contemporary school in capacity similar to Pink's, had many previous dealings with soldiers, perhaps in the field, respected them more, had qualifications far more applicable to fixing killing machines in a war zone, and had been teaching something related to that. My head would have exploded if I was told what teacher and where.

The jump from a 21st century school into a dalek-human battle in space is a bit startling if you haven't seen a TARDIS before. Or only ones not ridden by someone as crazy as the Doctor.

 

[Count Zero]

Also, what's with the nonsense about him having a thing against soldiers? Not only is that offensive, don't the writers remember UNIT, and that Lethbridge-Stewart was a SOLDIER and a good friend of the Doctor's?

The Doctor's instinctual dislike of soldiers is rather well-established. In the new show, it was explored in greater detail in The Doctor's Daughter but it was already present on the old show. I think it was the Fourth Doctor who said that thinking goes out the window once guns come into play (something like that, I don't recall the actual quote right now).

Yeah, the Doctor eventually became friends with the Brig and respected the other UNIT folks but in the beginning they had some conflicts (especially about the Brig's decision to murder the Silurians). The Doctor's view of UNIT remained ambivalent. He often ranted against the military way of thinking and doing things. And it's pretty obvious that he normally wouldn't have stayed around if he hadn't been exiled. Later he stays because he's grown attached to the people.

 

[Sindatur]

Also, what's with the nonsense about him having a thing against soldiers? Not only is that offensive, don't the writers remember UNIT, and that Lethbridge-Stewart was a SOLDIER and a good friend of the Doctor's?

The Doctor's instinctual dislike of soldiers is rather well-established. In the new show, it was explored in greater detail in The Doctor's Daughter but it was already present on the old show. I think it was the Fourth Doctor who said that thinking goes out the window once guns come into play (something like that, I don't recall the actual quote right now).

Yeah, the Doctor eventually became friends with the Brig and respected the other UNIT folks but in the beginning they had some conflicts (especially about the Brig's decision to murder the Silurians). The Doctor's view of UNIT remained ambivalent. He often ranted against the military way of thinking and doing things. And it's pretty obvious that he normally wouldn't have stayed around if he hadn't been exiled. Later he stays because he's grown attached to the people.

And on top of all this and other posts mentioning other examples, there's also Davros' Guilt Trip in Journey's End about The Doctor "turning all his Companions into Soldiers and Killing Machines" <paraphrased>, so, all the more reason not to want to start with one (and none of UNIT Soldiers were regular traveling Companions. Harry was a Doctor, Jo Grant was a Civilian hired as his assistant via Nepotism and Scientist Liz, who never actually got to travel with him)

 

[Jax]

You don't want a Doctor who strays too far into a-hole territory. Also, what's with the nonsense about him having a thing against soldiers? Not only is that offensive, don't the writers remember UNIT, and that Lethbridge-Stewart was a SOLDIER and a good friend of the Doctor's?

Ever since the shows return in 2005, the Doctor has made it quite clear he does not like most soliders and guns with exceptions like Lethbridge-Stewart.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

^ Even then, the Doctor didn't really seem to like UNIT at first anyway. Certainly, the Third Doctor didn't. Had he not been trapped, things would have been quite different.

As far as how much the Dalek 'knows' from the machine, I think the Daleks are kind of 'conditioned' by the computers in their shells. (At least by the time of the Tom Baker era, which sort of retconned Daleks into being more like created robots than survivors of an apocalyptic war).

In Genesis of the Dalek, Davros genetically manipulates the mutants so that they have no conscious, no empathy, and to hate. In the new episode, it sounds like that is done via technology rather than genetics.

Mr Awe

If you listen to the dialogue, I think he says that the technology is to ensure that nothing is missed in the breeding process - so a combination of the two.

Yeah, he specifically said the Daleks are born hating. However, they still gain life experiences. The technological solution is done to make sure those life experiences don't muck up their genetically designed hatred.

I mean, even this Dalek still filtered everything through his Dalek brain. Even when it changed its fundamental goals, it never changed its worldview. Seeing the star didn't make it think life was worth saving, it made it think its goals were pointless. Seeing the destruction at the hands of the Daleks didn't make it think peace was a noble goal or that destruction was bad, it just made it think that Daleks were the thing that had to be exterminated.

 

[auntiehill]

I liked this episode; I gave it a "good." I like the darker, less emo Doctor; it's more like the Doctor I grew up watching.

The only quibble I really have with the episode is Rusty. If I had a Dalek that was damaged and chained up, the first thing I'd do is remove or destroy its gun-arm. It might be a "good" Dalek or a Dalek that could be used to some advantage....but it's still a freakin' DALEK.

Not terribly bright on the human's part, I thought. But I liked the bits with Clara and Danny(the "Go on, then," girl was in the principal's office--haha! Nice bit of continuity) and how the Doctor really WAS a "hobby" to Clara. He needed her more than she needed him. Nice touch, there.

 

[RoJoHen]

The Doctor really should start paying his companions.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

The Doctor really should start paying his companions.

Be careful what you wish for, free market and all that. I would be willing to pay good money to be his companion. You'd only end up with the Doctor getting paid and someone like me as a companion. You'd never ever want this to happen.

 

[RoJoHen]

He should at least offer them hazard pay.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

What are you on about, being chased by murderous antibodies inside a dangerously irradiated murderous dalek, getting eaten by a dinosaur, dying a million times, sounds safe enough for me.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Watched this again (more awake for one thing) and liked it better. Still not sure about the Doctor at the end but maybe that's OK. After being hit over the head for so long by the show over how wonderful the Doctor is I think I wasn't prepared to have a potentially flawed hero.

A couple of things I noticed is how strange it is for the Doctor to go pick up Clara in the middle of the adventure. "Hey Clara, I'm in a super dangerous situation, so I thought I'd bring you some coffee and pick you up."

And also, those over-the-shoulder shots are fun.

The Doctor's age jabs are also a fun way to reverse the last episode. "Good for you, still making an effort."

Peter Capaldi reminds me of John Hannah at times who would probably have made a good choice as well.