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Is Moffat's retroness hurting the show?

Doctorwhovian

Doctorwhovian

Fleet Captain
The new theme has often been compared to the 80s, Capaldi's out fit recalls the Third Doctor plus he's an older actor like Hartnell/Pertwee etc were when they started, and of course for a while we had the colorful Daleks which were based somewhat on a mix between the smooth look of the classic Daleks but also the non-canon Dalek movies. Plus he pretty much crams in stock footage and photos of the classic Doctors any chance he gets. Plus the Cybermen in the Moffat era might be the ones from "our" universe, but with no real explanation. What's worse, Capaldi wants the "Tenth Planet" Cybermen back!
Now I like the classic series, but I think part of the reason the Eccleston/Tennant/Davies seasons were so well-received was because the classic callbacks were used more sparingly and gradually and the show developed it's own mythology. We actually don't see a classic Doctor at all until midway into season 3's "Human Nature" which was mainly some sketches, and no stock footage until "The Next Doctor". Sure we had Sarah Jane fairly early in Tennant's case, but initially I think she was really invited back to give a contrast to the Doctor/Rose relationship.
The Daleks, Cybermen and Master were of course OK, but it seems like every Moffat story is some spin on the Troughton serials i.e humans becoming Daleks, Daleks becoming humans, Daleks going good (Although the Daleks in Manhatten two parter did this too).



With the ratings pretty low for Capaldi's debut compared to others I fear they might be getting lower especially with fan's reactions.
 
oh, another anti-Moff and/ or anti-Capaldi thread from you. how delightful :brick wall:

perhaps you should just another the new episodes until either Moff or Capaldi, or both leave. you'd be doing us a favour :techman:
 
I'd say nostalgia and "retroness" can hamper the show's development, but I don't place the blame solely on Moffat, since his predecessors did it, too: not just RTD, but also JNT and I'm sure a couple others. And they're cheered on by us, the fans.

Don't get me wrong, I like going back to the classics, too. It's always nice to see some callback to the past, because it's a nice reward for loyalty. But the revival, imo, hasn't done a great job of making memorable, long lasting, recurring villains. There's the Weeping Angels, the Silence, and then...? The majority of recurring villains in the revival just happen to be villains from the old series. The return of the Clockwork robots after eight years just highlighted to me how good nuWho villains are few and far between -- and even then, that's kind of a cheat, since their creator is now the showrunner. So something original that can also make an impact is needed, but that's a tall order, I realize.
 
Retroness is fine, so long as its not offensively preventing new storylines and characters from being created. Moffat has created the Weeping Angels and the Silence - great villain material. So no real probs there.

However, I do have a problem with his retconness. The way he inserts himself and his cahracters in basically every aspect of the Doctor's life.
 
Well I think the main reason they held back on the references and cameos before is because the show HAD just come back, and they needed to slowly reintroduce the public to the Doctor and his world.

Now that the show's been around awhile, and younger fans are more familiar with previous Doctors and the history of the show, Moffat is freer to work those references in (which I'm sure RTD would have done more of as well, if he'd stuck around).

Besides, this seems like kind of a strange criticism to make, considering diehard fans have been begging forever for RTD and Moffat to bring back obscure characters like Omega, the Valeyard, The Rani, etc.
 
^I think there's a lot of truth to that. I think, had RTD stayed on longer, he would have added more references to the show's past. I often sensed, particularly in the first 2 seasons, a great reticence on referring too overtly or frequently to the show's past. And I think that did simply stem from an uncertainty of how solidly the show had taken root and how careful they needed to be about alienating new viewers. Towards the end of RTD's run, the references flowed more freely.

Heck, have you seen RTD's "The Death of the Doctor" from The Sarah Jane Adventures? Practically every other line in that story is a callback to the classic series in some way or another.

Saga said:
Doctorwhovian said:
What's worse, Capaldi wants the "Tenth Planet" Cybermen back!
Click to expand...
i fail to see how this is a bad thing.
Click to expand...

That could be really interesting. I don't want to see those Cybermen back but that's only because they scare me! I mean, I'm too old & jaded to be scared by Doctor Who monsters as a rule but "Tenth Planet" Cybermen make my skin crawl. While the later models just look like robots, the "Tenth Planet" ones look just human enough to remind us all of where they came from and how much like us they used to be.

Cyke101 said:
But the revival, imo, hasn't done a great job of making memorable, long lasting, recurring villains. There's the Weeping Angels, the Silence, and then...? The majority of recurring villains in the revival just happen to be villains from the old series. The return of the Clockwork robots after eight years just highlighted to me how good nuWho villains are few and far between -- and even then, that's kind of a cheat, since their creator is now the showrunner.
Click to expand...

The new series also gave us the Ood, the Judoon, and the Slitheen (although the Slitheen only appeared twice in Season 1 and haven't been seen since, except on The Sarah Jane Adventures). Then there were the 2 Cassandra episodes-- "The End of the World" & "New Earth." The Krillitanes from "School Reunion" came back in some of the novels but not on screen.

But coming up with iconic recurring villains is hard. In the classic series' 26 year run, they only ever came up with 6 recurring villains that ever appeared more than twice-- the Master, Daleks, Cybermen, Ice Warriors, Sontarans, & Silurians. (And, I suppose, the Yeti if you count their brief cameo in "The Five Doctors.")
 
It's only been one episode. Wait until the end of the season before making a topic like this.
 
The Borgified Corpse said:
The new series also gave us the Ood, the Judoon, and the Slitheen (although the Slitheen only appeared twice in Season 1 and haven't been seen since, except on The Sarah Jane Adventures). Then there were the 2 Cassandra episodes-- "The End of the World" & "New Earth." The Krillitanes from "School Reunion" came back in some of the novels but not on screen.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying, but the Ood and the Judoon aren't strictly villains; the Krillitanes and Cassandra aren't "long-lasting;" and it'll be too soon if the Slitheen ever come back ;)
 
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To be fair, classic Who villains are easier to remember because each story spans 4-5 episodes. The audience has a month for the fear and scariness to sink in.
 
There are many things Moffat has done since taking over DW I don't agree with, but I have no problem with "retroness" nor do I believe this is hurting the show.
 
Moffat has insisted in the past on introducing as many new threats as possible, so I don't see him as being particularly interested in "retroness", whatever that means.
 
Eh, we expect Year over Year "Live Eyes" will decrease as Viewing options/Freedom increase. I suspect the "live + 5" numbers will be equivalent to prior years, just more heavily reliant upon the "+5" as everything else is becoming.

Moffat's adding in of "Retronessicity" is pretty much Anniversary related (This is still the Anniversary Year, BTW). It didn't really start before the Anniversary started kicking into gear.
 
The Borgified Corpse said:
...the Slitheen (although the Slitheen only appeared twice in Season 1 and haven't been seen since, except on The Sarah Jane Adventures).
Click to expand...

Rule #1 in creating a memorable recurring alien villain rather than a pathetic joke. Don't make their most distinguishing characteristic their farting.
 
Cyke101 said:
The return of the Clockwork robots after eight years just highlighted to me how good nuWho villains are few and far between
Click to expand...

I'm sick of the robots. Especially considering...

they appear in two of the first three episodes of Season 8.
 
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