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Titan series: In your face Diverse???

I think what bothers me most in this discussion is that it's not about diversity as such but about how to best accomodate other species to humanoid standards. That is not what I would call diversity.

Titan's senior officers are still humanoid (with Ree as exception) - whether they have pointed ears, can read emotions etc doesn't really matter; captain and first officer are even human... so if it is criticized that Starfleet as portrayed in TV/movies is mainly humans in the upper echelons that would have been an opportunity to change that (i.e. in this case not have Vale as XO since it is Riker's command).

What I would like to see is at some point is a series about a humanoid having to adapt to living on a ship/station with non-humanoid living conditions. That would be different, that would be more about diversity as I see it than having non-humanoids having to conform to human(oid) living conditions.
 
Except that virtually every time we see another Starfleet captain or admiral, they're human.
That is very true, and very understandable from a TV point of view: why spend a lot of money aliening up an actor for only a few lines of dialogue, when they can just make them human and get them in for a costume fitting the sitting them behind a desk. Even giving them an alien name, whilst they still look human, would be something.

But thinking of just how large Starfleet is, the thousands of Captains and Admirals there must be, of which we've only seen a small fraction, there must be thousands of non-humans out there as well as some who are more alien than we've ever seen.

Don't get me wrong, I like that Titan has created such a diverse crew, especially the numerous non-humanoid individuals (in that aspect the ship might depart from the norm), in the fanfic I write, when I create the ship's roster I always have humans at no more than a quarter of the over all crew, often less than that, because I like working from alien perspectives, the interesting "look" and feel it gives stories. So its how I choose to view the universe.

A more diverse universe is something that is needed in Trek and something I would love to see on my TV screen.
 
Christopher - you are obviously a "Champion for Diversity" in the Star Trek world so why can't you accept the diversity of opinions in this thread? Do you see the irony there? ;)
 
I think what bothers me most in this discussion is that it's not about diversity as such but about how to best accomodate other species to humanoid standards. That is not what I would call diversity.
...
What I would like to see is at some point is a series about a humanoid having to adapt to living on a ship/station with non-humanoid living conditions. That would be different, that would be more about diversity as I see it than having non-humanoids having to conform to human(oid) living conditions.

I'm puzzled by this statement. As I've mentioned two or three times already, Titan and the Luna class in general are specifically designed so that their technology can accommodate nonhumanoids. The turbolifts are bigger than normal so people like Ree and Chaka can fit in them, the consoles and seats are more adjustable, etc. And I'm pretty certain I stated in Orion's Hounds that the ship's environmental conditions are set to something of an average of the member species' environments, so that the temperature, humidity, etc. are no more perfect for humans than they are for any of the other species aboard.

A lot of people seem to have a preconception that Titan's interior is designed exactly like every ship we ever saw on TV and the movies, even though the books themselves have explicitly stated otherwise. I don't understand that. I mean, it's not like this was a pre-existing starship class that was designed for humanoids and then suddenly had a change in crew composition. The books explicitly establish that it was designed from scratch to accommodate a wider range of life forms, that the ship was customized before launch with the needs of its crew in mind.

I guess the visuals from the shows and films create powerful expectations that are hard to overcome, even when there's explicit textual evidence to the contrary.


Christopher - you are obviously a "Champion for Diversity" in the Star Trek world so why can't you accept the diversity of opinions in this thread? Do you see the irony there? ;)

I trust you're joking, but unfortunately there are plenty of people out there who use just such oxymoronic rhetoric in earnest to attempt to legitimize their bigotry. "How dare you be intolerant of our right to be intolerant?" Rights, of course, are something that apply to other people, not just to oneself. People have a right to believe whatever they wish, but they shouldn't expect everyone else to bend to their will, and they're not being oppressed just because other people assert their own rights too.

And of course there are some things that are opinions, and thus are open to debate, and other things that are simply facts, and thus are not. For instance, it is a fact that white people make up less than 1/5 of the human race and will cease to be a majority in the United States by mid-century. So a depiction of a supposedly global future humanity that depicts it as mostly white and Euro-American -- and uniformly heterosexual, while we're at it -- is not simply a valid alternative opinion, it's a factually inaccurate portrayal. Or else it's a portrayal that implies a high degree of inequality, in which case it's factually questionable to present it as an enlightened and egalitarian future.

By the same token, if we're told that the Federation has 150-plus member species, yet Starfleet is portrayed as overwhelmingly dominated by humans, that's questionable from a purely factual and logical level. It's not even a matter of opinion or belief, it's a matter of the consistency and credibility of the presented facts. Either the presentation is flawed, or there are additional facts being glossed over. The diversity of the Federation, like that of humanity, is an objective fact rather than an opinion, and thus it must be taken into consideration.
 
Christopher - you are obviously a "Champion for Diversity" in the Star Trek world so why can't you accept the diversity of opinions in this thread? Do you see the irony there? ;)

I trust you're joking

No, I'm not.

but unfortunately there are plenty of people out there who use just such oxymoronic rhetoric in earnest to attempt to legitimize their bigotry.

Are you serious? Are you actually trying to say that I'm a bigot because I don't share your opinion? That's a pretty low blow and shows great immaturity on your part. Why drag bigotry into this thread? :wtf:

By the same token, if we're told that the Federation has 150-plus member species, yet Starfleet is portrayed as overwhelmingly dominated by humans

Yes, you've stated that repeatedly in this thread. In fact, all you are doing is repeating yourself. Do you really need to get the last word in? As others have said, you always seem to feel that you have to be right and everyone else is wrong so you repeat the same thing over and over and over. Another sign of immaturity.

I wish you well but you need to take a look at what you posted and ask yourself why you can't accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you, now matter how loudly you thump your chest.
 
The point is not about whether you agree with me. The point is about what's objectively established. The Federation is diverse. We've been told this. But we haven't been shown it in a manner consistent with what we've been told. Facts, not opinions.

And no, I was being very careful not to call you a bigot -- merely to point out that, however inadvertently, you had stumbled upon the exact same kind of self-contradictory and self-serving argument used by bigots. It makes no sense to say that someone's regard for diversity should require them to concede that they're wrong to have regard for diversity. You can't ask that I respect your opinion while simultaneously saying I have no right to mine. You have a right to your opinion, and I have a right to disagree with it.

The difference is that I'm trying to be considerate of opinions and needs beyond my own. I'm a human, not a Pahkwa-thanh. I'm male and Caucasian and heterosexual and non-disabled, a member of that tiny minority of Americans who belong to no "minority" of any kind. And yet I'm trying to be aware of everyone else's rights and considerations, not just mine. And yes, that includes your right to your opinion about diversity, but it does not require me or anyone else to accede to that opinion, because your opinion and your outlook are just one out of many that all need to be weighed. That's why this isn't about your opinion vs. mine. It's about everyone.
 
^Okay, that's one. I guess the flag officers page missed him because he's listed under "Academy commandant" in "Unnamed Starfleet Academy personnel." Still, dozens of humans, four Vulcans, and one Bolian? Not a good record.

How do we know most nonhuman don't actually avoid getting promoted to Admiral since its safer for their mental health :)

You have to admit it looks better for the other federation members races if its just the humans going nuts at the drop of a hat.
 
You can't ask that I respect your opinion while simultaneously saying I have no right to mine.

What are you talking about? :wtf: When did I say that you had no right to your opinion? I never said that and I don't think anyone in this thread said that.

The difference is that I'm trying to be considerate of opinions and needs beyond my own.

Your posts prove otherwise. Calling people bigots because they don't agree with you is not "trying to be considerate."

but it does not require me or anyone else to accede to that opinion, because your opinion and your outlook are just one out of many that all need to be weighed.

You need to read that statement and then apply it to yourself because your opinion dominates this entire thread. You can't accept the fact that not everyone agrees with you and that seems to be eating you up. Everyone can read, everyone knows where you stand but anytime someone disagrees with you, you have to throw a mini-tantrum to the point of getting personal. Is it because you have published novels that makes you feel that your OPINION trumps everyone else's?

You should just accept the fact that you are no more right than anyone else and just move on.
 
^Again, it's about facts, not opinions. Opinions must accede to facts. The fact is that we've been told the Federation has over 150 species in it. Therefore, that fact should be taken into consideration. Honestly, I don't know what you're even arguing for at this point.
 
Do we really need to justify the representation of (species) diversity in Star Trek?

Even as a youngster I noticed how the Starfleet personnel was predominantly white Human. Nothing against white Humans, but it always seems to bland. Not just aboard Voyager and the Enterprises but on random Federation crews glimpsed in various episodes, too. Where are the non-Humans among the soldiers on AR-558, or aboard the Fed ships in "Redemption"?

I do remember times when we did see background Starfleet aliens - because they're rare and stand out (Hoya, the Tiburonian, the female Vulcan in VOY, Bolians).

They weren't just off-camera. Deanna tells Lal there are no Andorians aboard the Enterprise-D.

I am happy that TrekLit finally rectified the issue by being inclusive. It reflects our diverse society better. It makes sense in-universe that a 150 planet alliance is not dominated by a single species.

Enter the Luna project. Even with Starfleet featuring some amount of species diversity, and having at least a few single-species ships (USS Intrepid, USS T'Kumbra) to make the best of it's members' talents, it stands to reason a concerted effort would be needed to really delve into IDIC.

If the Federation intends to incorporate all sorts of members, it has to make it work on all levels of society, including Starfleet.

Moreover, Q taught exploration is also about exploring ourselves. That includes routine interaction between different species doing their job on Starfleet vessels.
 
Some of Star Trek's best moments have been when two or more different species work together to solve a problem or overcome a common enemy.

Darmok is a great example.

Those kind of stories have amazing potential, and make for fine opportunities for a story teller to create and define characters that fit the IDIC credo.

Titan has been one of the most enjoyable novel series I have ever read, and part of that is because it has stories that incorporate diversity, especially species diversity.

At some point, complaints about the way the novels portray diversity basically devolve into "well I would have written it differently, so there".
 
They weren't just off-camera. Deanna tells Lal there are no Andorians aboard the Enterprise-D.

Although there was an episode where they said there were 13 different species within the crew. But usually we only saw the alien crewmembers when they were speaking parts.

Although it's easier to believe there's a bunch of the crew we aren't seeing on a Galaxy-class ship with 1014 people aboard than on an Intrepid-class ship with 150-some people aboard.
 
It's not just a matter of species. For example, Seven and the Borg children had special needs, too - they required powered alcoves.
 
^Again, it's about facts, not opinions. Opinions must accede to facts. The fact is that we've been told the Federation has over 150 species in it. Therefore, that fact should be taken into consideration.

No, opinions must not accede to facts. A cursory glance at Facebook, Fox News, or our political system in general, puts the lie to that statement.;)
 
Some thoughts from an occasional Trek reader; take 'em for what they're worth.

(1) Though there are some 150 species comprising the Federation by the time of "Star Trek:First Contact", we have no idea how many have citizens who have chosen to serve in Starfleet, or at least the spacefaring portion of Starfleet. It could very well simply be that humans have chosen in vastly greater numbers than other species, which would help support an in-universe explanation of why you see more humans than aliens in televised and cinematic Trek. I tend to think that almost extinguishing themselves through warfare prior to Cochrane's flight and first-contact with the Vulcans showed humanity that they need to not place all of their species' eggs in one terrestrial basket, so to speak, as well as space exploration appealing to the human condition and hopes and dreams, blah-blah-blah, ad nauseum.

(2) Though humanity itself is a very diverse species, clearly Caucasians far outnumber other races in televised and cinematic Trek. It is possible that events within the Trek timeline such as the Third World War in the 2050s had a catastrophic effect upon various non-Caucasian populations around the world as a result of, say, genetically-bioengineered viruses or greater use of WMDs in those regions, which would help support an in-universe explanation of why we see substantially fewer blacks, Asians, Latinos, or Arabs in televised and cinematic Trek.

(3) Though the Luna-class is designed to serve and protect a much more biologically diverse range of Starfleet-serving species, the baseline for maximum human functionality is still a one-gravity oxygen/nitrogen envelope of certain proportions. Any species needing assistance to serve within the range of that envelope outside of certain areas of the ship engineered to that species' requirements must utilize technological means to adapt to it, such as Lavena's drysuit and Melora's apparatus. And by volunteering to serve in Starfleet, they are agreeing to have to use those methods in order to function as part of a Starfleet crew. I don't recollect any dialogue suggesting Lavena or Melora griped about having to suit up accordingly in order to serve their functions, but hey, if they did gripe, that just makes them more...human. ;)

(4) The question of Doctor Ree's chair came up. As a walking lizard, I would think he'd be more comfortable standing on two legs with his tail forming a tripod stance than sitting in a chair. But that's just me.

(5) The question of control interfaces as applied to various species not equipped with ten human-sized fingers also, I think, came up at one point, but thinking about Rees' chair made me think of control interfaces as well. Perhaps the ship's computer detects a non-human's proximity to a control interface via its combadge and automatically configures the terminal so that the entity could use it without delay. As Christopher said, the technological means certainly exists in this context.

Again, just my thoughts. Your mileage may vary, folks.
 
I'm pretty sure they mention in at least one of the books, that there's a quick command for non-humanoid crew members to change the computer interfaces to be compatible with their hands/claws/whatever.
 
Arex is able to use his station without complaint.

Also, when Tuvok was blind in the Year of Hell timeline, he reconfigured his station with a voice command, "Activate tactile interface."

Starfleet consoles from the 24th century onwards are primarily touchscreens, and increasingly 3D-holos. They can be adapted to any sort of digits. While I don't remember whether such a statement has been made, I can also envision consoles to be receptive to chemical manipulation.

Real life example: One of my colleagues lacks arms and operates the run-of-the-mill computer keyboard and mouse with legs without issue. Technology is no hindrance, it's the means to achieve an environment for living and working for any-body (pun intended).
 
Moreover, Q taught exploration is also about exploring ourselves. That includes routine interaction between different species doing their job on Starfleet vessels.
The interesting thing here is: do we need non-human characters for this? Part of what makes Star Trek what is it, for me at least, is how the alien characters function as mirrors to have us re-examine what it means to be human.

Something not as clear to me, is how humans not from Earth have changed in their `time away from the homeworld´. Titan is mentioned as having a human captain and first officer and thus still human-centric in its command structure, but let's not forget that Vale is an Izarian too. Is her more military-minded viewpoint a personal one, or common among the people of Izar, perhaps because of a difficult colonization history? I'd love to see some former colony worlds - preferably old ones like Alpha Centauri - up close and be distinctly different from Earth. After all, how many countries in our own time are still (culturally) the same as they were 200+ years ago? (And can we even speak of "human culture" given how diverse it already is today?)

The above also raises the question of how many of the Federation's 150+ members are former colony worlds. There seem to be quite a few, which would also bring down the species diversity numbers - not enough to warrant the onscreen human percentage, but likely large enough to have an impact.
 
Real life example: One of my colleagues lacks arms and operates the run-of-the-mill computer keyboard and mouse with legs without issue. Technology is no hindrance, it's the means to achieve an environment for living and working for any-body (pun intended).

Exactly. If technology is a hindrance to access rather than an aid, then it's designed wrong. What is technology for if not to enable us to do things we otherwise couldn't?


The interesting thing here is: do we need non-human characters for this? Part of what makes Star Trek what is it, for me at least, is how the alien characters function as mirrors to have us re-examine what it means to be human.

There are plenty of SF universes that feature humans in a galaxy without other sentient life -- Asimov's Empire/Foundation universe, the Firefly 'Verse, the Moore Galactica/Caprica universe, etc. Such universes are actually more conducive to TV adaptation since they don't require either elaborate makeup/creature effects or implausible justifications for humanoid aliens. But if a series is set in a universe that's been established as having many different alien species, as Trek has done, it's simply a matter of internal consistency to acknowledge and use those aliens.


The above also raises the question of how many of the Federation's 150+ members are former colony worlds. There seem to be quite a few, which would also bring down the species diversity numbers - not enough to warrant the onscreen human percentage, but likely large enough to have an impact.

I suspect that far more than 150 UFP worlds have been mentioned in the 700-plus episodes and films, not to mention all the novels. I tend to assume that the "150 members" applies not only to single planets, but to polities and states, some of which may include multiple planets and have their own still-dependent colonies and protectorates.
 
/\That has always bothered me about TV Trek,the lack of background alien crewmembers.
DS9 had no problem with big crowd scenes on the promenade so budget doesn't seem to be the reason.
Did the producers think that the ordinary viewers mind couldn't cope with the concept of a diverse Starfleet?
 
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