Why my friend doesn't like DS9: Sisko.

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Vanyel, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Isn't Star Trek's genre considered 'Space opera'?

    It kind of boggles my mind how somebody could think that the exact same kind of stories are soap operas just because they happen over several weeks instead of one week. That's a silly, arbitrary distinction. And can he really not tell the difference between Sopranos and a crappy soap where they just milk unearned sentiment to contrive anticipation?

    I think your friend just came up with the 'soap opera' thing as a flip dismissal to avoid having to make a real argument.
     
  2. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Picard knew the borg wanted him - personally - some time before he was abducted.
    Since the time he knew, minimal competency required him to take measures to counter this AKA additional security, suicide pill, etc.

    And Picard knew he had vital information that must not fall into the hands of the borg.
    Picard also knew all other interstellar powers had means of extracting information from an unwilling subject - we even saw some of the cardassian, romulan and klingon technology used for this purpose (it is a LOT better than merely interrogation or torture).
    Since the borg were far more advanced than the other powers the federation dealt with, it stands to reason it will have far better ways for extracting information (as it turns out, it does have such means - assimilation).
    Minimal competency required Picard to consider the worst case scenario - that the borg do have the means to extract information from him - and implement countermeasures - especially when he had at his disposal several easy to implement countermeasures.

    Thinking a klingon and an android focused on other tasks are 'security enough' against intruders invulnerable to phaser fire and far stronger/faster than a standard soldier is yet another instance highlighting Picard's incompetence.

    For all we knew, all command level officers on the federation fleet received suicide pills; in any case, after Picard, assimilating other starfleet command officers would yield diminishing returns - Picard gave the borg everything they wanted already.

    Really? Now the borg can assimilate (or extract information) from dead persons - something they were never even close to being shown doing? Utterly unsupported speculation.

    And Worf/other bridge personnel killing Picard - when it became obvious they can't prevent Picard's capture - would have saved the lives of thousands. As it was, only a highly improbable fluke saved earth/the federation/trillions, seeing how the borg knew by heart everything the federation threw against it, and countered it accordingly. Worf/the rest were willing to pay a VERY HIGH PRICE in order not to kill Picard.

    Ramming the borg ship/initiating warp core breach - and causing more than a moderately-sized crated on the borg cube - would be far harder than setting a course/engage or initiating self-destruct.
    In other words, it would have required brilliant planing/genius. One can't fault Picard for not coming up with such.

    But Picard failed to even rise to the standards of minimal competency - to take the most basic, straight-forward measures required by the situation. And that IS IMPUTABLE to Picard.

    Treating the borg as if they were merely romulans - when Picard&co knew the difference in abilities - is proof of incompetence/naivete.

    BTW, even the romulans gaining Picard's knowledge would translate into a major disadvantage for the federation - AKA a significantly increased probability of thousands of federation citizens dead, colonies massacred, etc. So yes, even in the case of romulans, Picard should take all necessary measures in order not to be captured alive.

    The protection measures regarding the bridge/Picard should have been implemented in all the sensitive areas of the ship/all command personnel, of course.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
  3. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The borg's assimilation gives it a huge advantage over anyone that doesn't have equivalent means of extracting information from captured opponents.
    One captured commander and the borg knows everything, ranging from essential strategic and technological data to quirks of field captains.
    Even if one can match the borg ship-for-ship and gun-for-gun (and, as we know, the federation is not even close to being able to do that), this tremendous intelligence advantage should give the borg victory every time.

    This means that any and all measures to nullify this advantage of the borg should be routinely taken - up to and including suicide pills for all command level personnel.
    And if said personnel is not willing to give their lives in order to safeguard the federation (preferring instead assimilation), then they are not fit to be on a starfleet ship's command deck.
    Indeed, starfleet personnel is expected to give their lives for far less - in order to save a single ship, or a single colony against the attacking romulans/whatever.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
  4. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    The problem I had with it was they were trying to hard with the whole "I'm not picard" thing from sisko.

    You know even in that ghastly Q episode he bellows out "I'm not Picard" and looks like he has tears in his eyes.

    It was really overdone, we get it, Sisko is very different, just let it be.
     
  5. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    DS9's first season really did overcompensate for itself in a lot of ways. They were trying to establish their own setting and story that differentiated themselves from TNG, yet at the same time brought in every freaking TNG extra they could get their hands on for guest appearances.
     
  6. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    All modern Trek shows needed until the third or fourth season to get "good" or at least find its identity. DS9 become great when Sisko shaved his head and grew the goatee.
     
  7. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Suicide pills would have been useless in this situation though. A Borg materialized right next to Picard and immediately incapcitated him, there was no time to take one. And with no pockets in the uniforms, I don't know where he could have kept it. His boot heel maybe.

    He definitely should have had one for the commando mission in "Chain of Command."

    If nothing else, the communicator badges should have been equipped to self-detonate (perhaps even remotely) for such scenarios.
     
  8. indolover

    indolover Fleet Captain

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    What philosophising? I never mentioned that. I'm simply citing my opinion (which seemingly to you is offensive) that neither party is "to blame". Yet you without much reasoning or logic are citing Picard as the sole culpable party. What you do in your own life is your own business, but I feel sorry for those close to you if you're so arbitrary or God-like in your reasoning.

    As for Picard getting captured, well this depends if all reasonable action could be taken to prevent it. This is general military protocol.

    Lastly, common sense does not exist. Get with it, pops.
     
  9. indolover

    indolover Fleet Captain

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    Perchance, do you still see Sisko as a hero despite tricking Romulans into a war, which certainly killed more persons than at Wolf 359? Or is your answer "people are human"?

    Seems to me that you like to project your opinions. A tip for you is that nobody needs to care what you think.
     
  10. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Mentioned? You did your butt-hurt psilosophising non-stop throughout this thread (came up with quite a few baseless dictums in the process, too).
    And you generously added ad personams for everyone who doesn't think your superficial opinion is truth, fact and the word of god (which I do find offensive).
     
  11. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm thinking of self-termination pills that can't be stopped by someone merely preventing you from reaching to your pocket - spy-fiction features numerous examples (such as a tooth containing an undetectable substance, etc).
     
  12. indolover

    indolover Fleet Captain

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    lol.. I don't really care either way. Also, facts don't exist, get with it. You are all aggressively putting forward your beliefs, hence my comments.
     
  13. Vanyel

    Vanyel The Imperious Leader Premium Member

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    A question for you Edit_XYZ, the suicide pills you believe all command personnel should have when in battle with the Borg, when should they use them? When the Borg take down the shields? When the Borg catch up with the ship running at maximum warp? Should Starfleet even try to mount a defense?

    Look at it, Starfleet can't stop the Borg which means the Borg are going to be able to take who or what they want from any ship, so why try?

    The command crew is always going to be vulnerable to abduction by the Borg and since the Borg can adapt to phasers quickly, and there are far more Borg on a Cube than personnel on any Starfleet ship, so they can just keep sending Borg until they capture someone. Or should Starfleet send ships with Cadets to fight so no codes, advanced battle tactics, expieience, or anything else can be learned?
     
  14. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    The suicide pill idea is moronic and destroys moral.

    Starfleet officers are already expected to give their lives to protect the Federation. Better to let them die fighting. Let the ship ram the Borg cute or activate auto destruct sequence. Starfleet officers are known for their last minute saves.
     
  15. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    When they're about to get assimilated - the tubules entering their neck, about to be sedated on a borg ship, etc.

    Defeatism? That's it?*
    It's unknown whether starfleet can stop the borg or not in a given situation.
    But in ANY situation, starfleet will be in a far better position if its command personnel dies rather than being assimilated.

    *Of course, you can't convincingly argue that Picard displayed anything approaching competence with regard to his kidnapping by the borg - without resorting to logical fallacies, that is.
    Still, is this fatalistic ~'starfleet'll lose in any case' mindset the only argument you could come up with?

    Except they won't die, but get themselves assimilated - with disastrous results for the federation (starfleet officers are known for that, too).

    If that's sufficient to destroy morale, then there's not much morale to be destroyed in the first place.

    And merely not sitting well with your cushy moral sensibilities doesn't not make an idea 'moronic'.
     
  16. Sadara

    Sadara Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Red Squad!
     
  17. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Excellent idea! The Borg would assimilate them, then think there's nothing worthwhile about the Federation and leave em alone!
     
  18. dru

    dru Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    No goatee? Didn't like Sisko. Goatee? Sisko was awesome.

    Nothing could make me like Jake or Keiko. Sigh.
     
  19. Vanyel

    Vanyel The Imperious Leader Premium Member

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    The Borg also have advanced medical technology, death to Federation doctors, may be near death to Borg medical technology. For example the cryonically frozen people discovered in the episode, The Neutral Zone, were dead to 20th century doctors, but not to Dr. Crusher. To the Borg, the few seconds between the taking of the pill and the nonoprobes injection may be more than enough time to prevent the killer pill to take effect.

    What then happens when a Starfleet ship comes across a Borg ship in open space where no Borg activity had been detected? Have some run and get the suicide pills while the starship makes a brake for it?

    And I will ask you to look at it from the standpoint of the Enterprise crew in Best of Both Worlds. They didn't know about assimilation and they didn't know the repercussions of assimilation. They knew the Borg wanted the Captain, but not for what reason. Extra security would mean more phaser fire on the bridge. And as was pointed out Picard was taken off guard, surprised, even with a suicide pill he may not have had time to activate it and maybe the Borg had already neutralized it.

    As for Starfleet at Wolf 359 I think it's fairly obvious that no suicide pills were given to the command crews. Otherwise Sisko's job, after the Saratoga was mortally wounded, would have been bite the pill before the Borg beam on board, but instead he went lookingfor his family and exacuating civilians. If these suicide pills you suggest were indeed given to the command crew as you also sugested, didn't Sisko show dereliction of duty (sorry about mispellings not on my regular computer) by not taking his?

    We can play arm-chair-quarterback all we want (and we do a lot of that here for situations that never happened) but our heroes didn't know what they were in for.
     
  20. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sorry, it's just good policy to politely decline membership in any organization where suicide pills are paired with the word duty. :p