What would a half-Andorian, half-Vulcan child look like?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Sal'ira, Jun 23, 2010.

  1. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    "Dude," don't talk to me like you're some kind of authority on the subject because you ain't. In fact, it shows how you missed a very simple concept: This. Is. Star Trek. To break that down for you, that does not mean the real world, but it does mean the world as according to Star Trek, where many incredible things are possible.
    If you had actually read my post instead of just locking on something to argue about, you would have realized that I specifically said, "In The Star Trek Universe..." Nothing I said implied I was talking about anything other than the purely fictional beings such as Vulcans, Andorians, etc. (do you know where there are real aliens? Do you know their biology and compatibility level with Humans?) I really thought that was kind of obvious and didn't need to be explained.
    :rolleyes:
    Of course it is an opinion. It's nothing but an opinion, because all the aliens in Star Trek are make believe. There's no way of knowing what is and isn't possible unless it's actually said so onscreen. Otherwise, don't confuse the real world with Star Trek.
     
  2. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But even using the lax biological rules of Star Trek, I can see no way that two beings with differing blood chemistry could breed without help. The mother provides nutrients for the Foetus - it's her blood and her oxygen that keeps the little fella going. I don't see how a human can keep a Vulcan foetus alive even assuming Vulcan sperm could be genetically engineered to penetrate the wall and fertilise a human ovum if they have completely different blood.

    Maybe that's not how Vulcan women keep their foetuses alive of course. In nature, hybrids can vary based on whether you have, for example, a tiger father and lion mother or a lion father and tiger mother. Even so, I would have thought that Spock could not have grown in amanda's womb, in spite of the scene from NuTrek (cut I believe) showing his natural birth.
     
  3. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    I said in my very first post that most compatibility issues probably were resolved with the use of science. But I also think it depends on the compatibility level between members of two different humanoid species. Depending on the pairing, it could vary anywhere from easy, to difficult, to "forgetaboutit."
     
  4. scotpens

    scotpens Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Andorian porn must be VERY interesting.
     
  5. TiberiusMaximus

    TiberiusMaximus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    I can see no way to produce enough energy to warp space-time around a vessel to move through space at effectively faster than light speeds, no way to break a person or object into a billion tiny pieces and assemble it remotely, no way to create a stable wormhole, no way for non-linear energy beings to exist, no way flying around a sun would cause time travel, no way the Vorta could be immune to most poisons you can think of....

    Hmm, now that you mention it, Star Trek is impossible. Thanks for enlightening me - I mean, ruining everything!

    Okay, ignore my sarcasm and don't get offended. My only point is that it's ridiculous to choose one part of Star Trek to not believe. Personally, I think you are correct - in reality, two lifeforms that are 'alien' to one another could breed. But in Star Trek, they can. In Star Trek, slingshot-ing yourself around the sun sends you back in time. This point has been made before, but I had to say it. If you are willing to suspend your disbelief to the point that warp travel is possible (and easy), hybrids are no less believable, in my humble opinion.
    We know all humanoids (well, most) in Trek came from the ancient humanoids, which is why they can interbreed. The same genetic engineering that made them walk upright, have opposable thumbs, two eyes, etc., could also have given the DNA 'instructions' as to how to create life with a different set of DNA, telling it what traits would exist, which would be dominant, whose blood type would flow in the child, what the skin color would be...just like two humans creating a child.

    On the other hand, if you just want to imagine that every hybrid had assistance, go ahead...K'Ehleyr said her parents needed 'help' so that is a valid opinion. I think it could happen sometimes without assistance, but that's just me. :)
     
  6. Myasishchev

    Myasishchev Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A unicorn.

    Yeah, a single prokaryote. "The Chase," while well-intentioned, purported to explain humanoids, but all it did was explain the universal use of DNA as a genetic coding language, which is impressive and would have been cool had they known what they were doing.

    I don't think the writers actually knew how eukaryotes developed. Hint: DNA played a subsidiary role.

    Except bacteria don't have opposable thumbs. Or mitochondria or cholorplasts. Or nuclei. Strangely, life forms that haven't changed as much in the intervening four billion years ago aren't as complicated. I wonder where that complexity came from, because it didn't come from the Salome Jensians.;)

    Also, I suspect the immune system would have something to say about alien cum.
     
  7. Kain

    Kain Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Under no known biology laws is the mating between two alien species possible. We humans can't even mate with gorillas, that are the closest thing to us. Even considering that, even with extraordinary technical and genetic abilities, like the ones the "First Ones" have, it would be extremely difficult to produce beings with so much resemblance to one another. There could be one with three eyes, another with their nose in the forehead, another with their mouth above their eyes, small ones the size of an apple, or tall ones the size of a building. Most of them would probably use very different mating methods than our two-gender tube-in-the-hole one. It would be impossible to even consume alien foods, for that matter.

    For things like the above to be remotely possible in the real world, the "First Ones" would have to colonise the other planets with their own flora and fauna, and then program their evolution.

    But we're talking Star Trek here. Where parallel worlds whose people speak English exists in our own Galaxy. So we should just consider it poetic licence.
     
  8. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    Indeed. There is more drama and conflict in exploring the role of a hybrid in society than that of a character of a single planetary origin. And Star Trek is a drama first and foremost.
     
  9. TiberiusMaximus

    TiberiusMaximus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    ^Aye, you've got a point there. :)
     
  10. SpyOne

    SpyOne Commander Red Shirt

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    A few thoughts:
    I don't know if ENT weighed in on this, but I seem to recall when Data was doing one of his verbal data-dumps about comparative views on mating that he said Andorians married in groups of 4. Trek Lit seems to have taken that ball and run with it to the idea that Andorians have 4 genders. If that is the case, I doubt they could interbreed with any of the 2-gendered races.
    If, however, you decide that Andorians are 2 gendered but have a social convention of polygamy (perhaps requiring 2 males and 2 females to make a "marriage" in their culture), then cross-breeding is more likely.

    Trek has cross-breeding a lot more likely than reality, probably because it's cool. :) So let's roll with that.
    I believe the only time we have had an on-screen mention of a crossbreed that wasn't "Human-something" it was Klingon-Trill. Trek seems to follow the convention of many Fantasy settings that humans can breed with almost anything. So, again, there is reason to doubt an Andorian-Vulcan is possible.

    But you didn't ask if it was possible, you asked what it would look like. :)
    From what we've seen (with the exception of Spock), half-breeds tend to be a blend of their parents' features. So:
    Pointy ears, though not quite as pointy as a Vulcan's (see: Simon Tarses)
    Antennae, though smaller than most.
    Slightly paler blue, perhaps a bit aqua.
    Hair white or black, or a mix (like salt-and-pepper: some strands white, others black)

    IMO, YMMV.
     
  11. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I actually don't agree with this at all. In the history of Trek we have had only one Human-Vulcan hybrid and numerous pureblood Vulcans. I don't think that the stories focusing on the pure Vulcans had less drama and conflict. In fact, only a tiny part of Spock's established history revolved around his human heritage. It's the same with Troi - why not just make her an empathic Betazoid and focus on giving her race a culture and idiosyncracies (instead of plot-busting telepathy)? It's all in the writing and I just think that half-breeds are so cliche that they can represent lazy writing.

    There are also numerous ways of doing hybrids that don't involve standard interbreeding. These include rescue from an alien civilisation (Worf, or Seven), genetic transformation (Delenn, Tuvix, Lyta Alexander), disguise (Seska), body swaps/possession (Sargon, Pah Wraiths, Tokra). Generally if an alien species is interesting I don't think you need the millstone of being a hybrid to give the character drama. Trois is the classic example. She was woefully underused and her half-human heritage added no drama at all because she was a poorly conceived character.
     
  12. Kain

    Kain Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    As I see it, Troi was made half-human just to have weaker telepathic abilities than full Betazoids. She could only sense feelings, because if she could read minds it would be too easy to solve every problem in the series as soon as it was introduced. Not that she was used at her full potential in the series anyway, but whatever...

    Also, using the same principle, wouldn't a Human-Vulcan hybrid like Spock be able to become way more logical than a full Vulcan, because, as a Human in comparison to the Vulcans, he would have weaker feelings to suppress, since Vulcans have way stronger feelings than Humans?
     
  13. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes but if they hadn't made Betazoids powerful telepaths in the first place, they would not have needed to make Troi half-human to put the genie back in the bottle.

    Spock was a more powerful telepath than most Vulcans and I don't think tehy ever really made much of his human heritage - or at least nothing that wasn't also attributed to full-blooded Vulcans in later series.

    I love Andorians actually. Best thing Enterprise did was to finally give them some air time. Both species have a lot of inherent traits. Mixing and matching them would be a bit of a nightmare.
     
  14. StarryEyed

    StarryEyed Commodore Commodore

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    Actually, the current thinking is that emotions are hard-wired into a human brain and that it would be physiologically impossible for a Human to process information without an emotional bias.

    As to combining the two, it would be like trying to build a plasma TV by combining the parts from a CRT TV and an LCD TV. Simply not possible.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2010
  15. Finn

    Finn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Having four genders doesn't necessarily mean four sexes... There ARE some cultures here on Earth where there are THREE genders.
     
  16. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Are you referring to the eunuchs in India?
     
  17. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Uuummm, Cardassian-Bajorans hybrids? Two of them in fact - Ziyal, and Dukat's other half-Bajoran child, with Mika the cultist - which apparently get conceived naturally and even come as a surprise?
     
  18. neozeks

    neozeks Captain Captain

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    I'm curious. I remember that in some of the novels I've read they could read people's minds, but was that really established in the show? I don't remember TNG quite so clearly but I always assumed telepathy worked just among themselves and other telephatic species. You mean Lwaxana could have read Picard's mind (as in full thoughts, not just emotions) at any time?
     
  19. StarryEyed

    StarryEyed Commodore Commodore

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    Yup. They didn't seem to have the ability to project thoughts onto others or manipulate them telepathically but they could read most species easily. In that regard, they were much more powerful telepaths than the Vulcans. They just had problems with four-lobed species like Ferengi and Dopterians.
     
  20. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Unless we make the presumption that some of the humanoid species are either subspecies, or belong to the same genus.

    For political reasons this would NEVER be acknowledged (as we saw in "The Chase"), but IRL we have the example of the Felidae for successful, viable interspecies breeding within the same family (and in a couple of cases across genus lines). A serval-house cat hybrid has actually been established as a viable breed of pet, and without any genetic manipulation whatsoever. The offspring, known as Savannahs, are healthy and fertile.

    I would not think all Trek species would be compatible, by any means.

    But, in terms of believability, I would actually believe a Cardassian-Bajoran child more readily than a human-Vulcan one. If we consider Cardassians to be therapsids and NOT reptilians, and interpret onscreen evidence to suggest that they have iron-based blood, then compatibility there makes more sense than expecting two entirely different blood types to actually mate successfully unless heavy genetic manipulation is involved (which may explain why Spock had almost nothing human about his outward appearance).