Spoilers Ghostbusters: Frozen Empire grade and discussion thread

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As much as I loved Afterlife, I'm glad Frozen Empire is a return to New York City. I know some people are already pre-critical of even more nostalgia to wade through, but I have faith this film will be more than just another trip down memory lane. I can't wait to see what the sequel has in store for the new generation of Ghostbusters.

 

Hollywood Reporter accidentally broke embargo. They pulled it but this got out:

"Ghostbusters: Frozen Empire tries hard, very hard,
to satisfy the series' fans with plenty of nostalgic
throwbacks and mainly succeeds. It's not nearly as
good as the classic 1984 original, but then again,
neither was 1989's Ghostbusters Il, and that one was
directed by Ivan Reitman and written by Dan Aykroyd
and Harold Ramis, all of whom were responsible for the
original. So the fact that this installment manages to be
as much fun as it is represents a minor triumph.
"Ghostbusters: Frozen Empire doesn't mess with the
well-honed formula, carefully balancing its laughs and
scares in the breezy manner that makes for pleasurable,
if lightweight, viewing."
"THE BOTTOM LINE The proton packs still work, and so
does the formula."

 

It was alright but I was surprised the city being completely frozen doesn’t happen until the very end of the movie. I thought it happens earlier on and they had to navigate this new frozen landscape to get to the villain. Because of that it felt very rushed to me. Especially when they took down the main foe.

 

You don’t need to spoiler tag it. The thread itself is marked for spoilers

 

I'm not sure what Phoebe was trying to accomplish by turning into a ghost for 2 minutes. How would that help her ghost friend?

 

I gave it a B+, although i'm probably being generous just because i'm such a Ghosthead. I liked it. It was fun. It had issues, but overall it was fun.

I do think it had some pacing issues. The Big Bad comes in way too late and there's very little stake with the characters. Gozer and Vigo both had a much closer relation to the Ghostbusters... Garraka is just a thing that happens, with only Melody to actually tie it to anything... and she was sent specifically to tie in.

I wish the end battle was... more. It was kind of anti-climactic. The promise of "every ghost they ever caught" being a threat was wasted. Give it another 20 minutes, let the ghosts out.

I was left thinking... I kind of hope this is the last one. The old guys are certainly done, and honestly the new cast just isn't strong enough to carry it. I actively can't stand Podcast, the rest are just... there. I still really hate that it's focused on kids... the humor would work much better with a group of adults. Always thought a new GB team would be a new set of up-and-coming comedians.

 

We saw it yesterday and enjoyed it. It's fun. I'm glad they dealt with Phoebe being a minor, as that seems glossed over in a lot of movies with teenagers.

 

I think if they do another, they need to cut the fat on characters. Drop Podcast and Lucky, they are completely unnecessary. Put way more focus on the Spenglers+Grooberson. As is Trevor's main contribution was "I'm 18!"

A more in-depth look at some things...

I liked the idea of Melody, although i'm not crazy about the execution. It's... fine. I do like that we've gotten more about actual... ghosts. GB ghosts tend to be more... inter-dimensional cosmic horrors, like Gozer or Garraka. Melody's connection to her match was a bit contrived, since it implied that she was fated to be in that exact situation in order to move on. Granted, there seems to be a power at work to direct souls to the other side, so a god-type figure I suppose would have that kind of clairvoyance.

I don't like how apparently easily replicatable the technology was. I was kind of hoping the knowledge died with Egon and nobody else could make sense of it.

I feel like ALOT got cut from this movie. Like, half the trailer isn't there. They made all those red jackets for like, 2 minutes of screen time.

I think there was a real missed opportunity for the Ghost Zoo to have Vigo in there. It would make sense he wasn't permanently destroyed, and he's the OG "cursed object" ghost.

My biggest gripe just film wise is again the final battle/resolution. NYC should have frozen over like, midway through the movie, or even earlier.

 

The member berries are really hurting this franchise more than ever before. I feel they need to move beyond these and craft new stories which expand on the worldbuilding. One aspect of this film which caught my attention was the attitude of Winston and his staff. Using a quote from another franchise, Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. I feel they could have done with more exploration of the theme brought up by this quote and, at the same time, expand on the worldbuilding. I didn't feel at the end that they learned anything from this experience.

I rated the film a C.

 

I saw the film on IMAX on Saturday but I'm only just getting the chance to review it now. While is perhaps a little overstuffed as it tried to service all of the characters, both old and new, I really enjoyed the overall adventure and new mythos.

Once again, Mckenna Grace stole the film from the plethora of stars around her. That said, I do wish there had been more focus on Phoebe's story arc, which was easily the most engaging part of the film. I particularly wanted to see more of her relationship with Melody, especially since we've never actually seen such a strong interaction between a human and a ghost in the films (Slimer doesn't count). Plus, the trajectory of that relationship reminded me of the Webby/Lena story arc in the new DuckTales, with the added layer of Phoebe's sense of rejection and abandonment pushing her into that relationship. I say all of this despite fully predicting that Melody was using Phoebe, would apologize for betraying her, and would ultimately redeem herself. If the film had focused more on that relationship instead of trying to balance everyone, I think that arc would've felt more fleshed out and less blatant.

That all said and focusing on what film we did get (instead of harping on what could've been), I still greatly enjoyed the various mini-arcs that played out within the Spengler family and the original Ghostbusters (but I wish Janine had more to do and with that nifty wrist device during the climax!). Unsurprisingly, the biggest highlight was Gary trying to find his place within the family and his relationship with Phoebe. Even if it was a bit cliché, I felt he earned her calling him "Dad" at the end.

I liked the new mythos of Garraka and the ancient history built around him, and I particularly liked how it reminded me of Raiders of the Lost Ark. I'm certain someone on the internet is either calling it derivative or a straight-up rip-off, but I liked the allusion to the Indiana Jones adventure. While I do think adding supernatural abilities to humans was a bit much, but at least it was limited to one lineage specific to this particular mythos.

In addition to Garraka, I loved all of the new ghosts introduced in this film. I especially loved the Possessor, even if it forced me to look past the obvious plot hole of Winston's engineers failing to resecure the cracked glass of its enclosure, which only happened to ensure its escape and helping Garraka's own escape.

Speaking of whom, I loved the worldbuilding with Winston's engineers, even if all we really got to see were Dr. Lars Pinfield, Lucky the intern, and Janine, all of whom mostly disappear during the third act due to the overstuffed cast and plot. I wish we had gotten more of that worldbuilding instead of some of the more convoluted aspects of releasing Garraka.

Much like Afterlife, this film is a passing of the torch between generations and I really hope any potential future films focuses strongly on just the Spengler family. As unlikely as it seems considering the lukewarm reviews (but at least the opening weekend box office take is the same as Afterlife), I would love to see even more of the Ghost Corps beyond the Spengler family in a separate film and/or series. A guy can dream!

As much I as I enjoy this film, I agree that there are certain plot holes. While I'm willing to look past most of them (including the ones you talked about and the one I brought up), I do agree there is a significant pacing issue as direct result of its overstuffed nature. The Phoebe/Melody relationship in particular stood out to me when I realized that it had been sitting on the back burner until it was time for Phoebe to accidentally let Garraka free.

She was trying to relate to Melody's existence. Ray's musings to Podcast earlier in the film connects to that feeling, even if the pacing failed to put those two points directly together.

Yeah, I got the sense a lot was left on the editing floor, for better or for worse. I was surprised Lucky's near death was cut short when the trailer explicitly teased it.

That said, considering the film's overstuffed nature, I'm not sure how what was cut could've fit in.

True but at least we did get several references to the second film (thus ending silly speculations of it being ignored in Afterlife).

 

Movie seems to state that the video game is no longer canon which is sad. I liked that one

 

Hell, Afterlife implied in several ways that GB2 wasn't canon... requiring a few leaps in logic to actually make it happen. The most odd part being that Ecto-1 was... Ecto-1, and not 1-A, in it's '84 appearance. I guess Egon at the same point in his spare time pulled off all the 1-A bits and returned it to it's original configuration (supported by the movie... the LED board from 1-A is in the background of Egon's lab.) Really the video game was already dropped from canon in Afterlife with the explanation of Egon's backstory.

But yeah, the game isn't canon in this universe. In expanded GB lore, crossing the streams in the original movie spawned infinite parallel universes. As parallel universes go, some are closer than others. You end up with something like a situation like the video game being post-GB2, or Afterlife. You also end up with things like the Real Ghostbusters, the various comics, or the 2016 universe. There's an entire Ghostbusters multiverse out there. In the somewhat more recent comics, the IDW comics team actually built a dimensional portal, allowing them access the multiverse.

I think that's a fair criticism. It did feel like a bit much with all the characters. I'll die on the hill that they should have left out Podcast and Lucky. They were pointless and basically shoehorned in anyway, taking away precious time that could have gone to other characters.

I disagree slightly on how good Phoebe is... she's fine but I really don't think that that the franchise can be built on her. I did like her much more in this than I did in Afterlife though. Ghostbusters has always been an ensemble piece... Phoebe works as the Egon-type, Grooberson works as a Ray-type, and then Trevor and mom (for the life of me her name doesn't stick in my head) don't really mirror any of the OG busters but that is ok. Trevor in particular doesn't have much of a character. If we get another, which I think is probably likely, it might be time to retire the old guys as much as it pains me (Winston should probably be at least present, if not super involved), and focus on those four. Yeah sure Phoebe can be the anchor, but the ensemble needs to be there.

That was the only real emotion I felt during the movie. That was a nice moment.

I didn't see any real connection to Raiders. I do like the mythos, although not quite as much how we learned of it... just straight "exposition dump" and move on. My only real issue with Garraka is that there was so little weight for the team. Gozer was deeply connected to the team, with Dana being their first customer and persisting through the early days of the business. Vigo was connected to the team via Dana as well. Garraka just kind of shows up. That's fine, but I would have liked some deeper stakes for the team. Melody was probably supposed to be that, but that didn't really have the time to develop.

I'm actually totally fine with humans having supernatural abilities. Anything should be possible in this universe. Some humans have the ability to manipulate fire is no less believable than evil slime turned good making the Statue of Liberty walk through lower Manhattan... what I REALLY liked is the idea that "ghosts" (that term is used loosely in Ghostbusters, where "ghosts" are more than often than not closer to extra-dimensional aliens...) have been a threat to the world forever, and there have been other... ghostbusters, lowecase g throughout history.

Critic reviews were bad, fan reviews have been in the high 80's... critic reviews are garbage. I can usually gauge a movie based on critic reviews, but opposite. If critics hate it, there's a good bet it's good. If they like it, it's probably trash. At least in the movie like this.

It's doing well financially so far, we will see if it can maintain next week.

I think there is plenty of life left in Ghost Corps and I think there is the makings of a cinematic universe. Unfortunately it's Sony, and Sony absolutely sucks at this, but there is potential. I'm really hoping to two things... I do want to continue on with the Spengler family and Phoebe's story, I *ALSO* want something closer to a traditional Ghosbusters with a more adult team and a bit more focus on the slightly more mature comedy.

I think there is room for both. It's time to see Ghostbusters become a bigger business, fielding franchises or multiple teams. The seeds were planted here. Leave the Spenglers in New York, maybe fire up a new team in another city. Perhaps go something of the franchise route, and give a big shout out to the fans, who have been organizing into local groups for 40 years.

A new movie that somewhat returns to the roots could be interesting. Take a team of paranormal investigators who reach out to Zeddemore about expanding out the business. If any of the old guys still want to do it, you could easily work in Ray there, sent in as something of an advisor, or maybe even better have Janine take over the advisor role.

 

It's too bad that it sounds like the old team might be a bit of a burden on getting on with a new story. I was hoping the memberberries had been shaken out with Afterlife. I haven't seen it and I'm not dismissing it out of hand but that sounds a bit disappointing.

 

Funny you point that out because early on in Frozen Empire (before it became clear that it too much going on already), I was hoping there would be some kind of cameo or direct reference to Answer the Call. Ultimately, I'm glad there wasn't but if we do continue to get more films, I hope that is something that does happen at some point. Answer the Call had a lot of flaws but I largely liked the Ghostbuster team and I especially want to see Holtzmann again. Probably will never happen but it's nice to think of how it could be done.

Yeah, I get that criticism. I think Podcast mostly works in this film because of his interactions with Phoebe and Ray and his (admittedly small) role investigating the mystery. I would love to see more of him in a Spengler film because of his relationship with Phoebe (a non-romantic role at that) but I get why you and others don't see the need for him.

I will admit Lucky was mostly wasted here and only worked as a surprise intern for Winston's engineers. I think she can work in the future in that capacity, especially if we get my hope for a separate sequel from the Spenglers that focuses on Ghost Corps around the world. She would be the ideal entry point for the audience in that regard. I will agree that, considering Frozen Empire did nothing to follow up on the potential romantic pairing of Trevor and Lucky that she didn't serve much purpose here otherwise and that's a shame.

I agree that Phoebe shouldn't be the outright lead and that she's more of the anchor for the ensemble. I just think she's by far the most interesting and engaging character of the family. Admittedly, some of that was lost in Frozen Empire (unfortunately) but that really stood out for me in Afterlife.

I realize now that I made a mistake because I was rushing my review before going to be late last night, but I meant The Last Crusade. The allusion I see is the existence of an ancient religious artifact whose location is quietly and (mostly) carefully protected by a long-existing lineage.

I agree it was an exposition dump and I often don't like them either but I find this one more forgivable for two reasons: I adore Patton Oswalt and I always love it when a film provides a creative animated display that goes along with the exposition dump (much like how Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows did, among others).

I agree with that. Like I said before, the film should've focused more on the Phoebe/Melody relationship and I think that connection and stakes would've been better laid out as a result.

Yeah, I loved that, too, another reason why I didn't mind the exposition dump. I think that's where Ghostbusters works best: Tying into a larger history that connects with the immediate threat. That and weirdness.

Yup, that's exactly what I'm hoping for. But as you said, this is Sony we're talking about so...who knows. I trust Jason Reitman to guide the way, but I know he has only so much control over it.

 

I don't think that's true at all, at least in so far as they are utilized. If anything, I think the newer characters are somewhat on the weaker side and I fear won't be able to carry the franchise without the older guys, but in no way would I call them a burden.

There is some kind of alternate universe out there where they did 2016 the right way, as a continuation of GB1 and 2. A 2016 version of afterlife, where the torch is passed from the old guys to them. They could have carried the franchise for sure, but doing it as a reboot was a terrible call.

I wouldn't hold my breath on a movie referencing it. It happens in the comics, but that's comics... they can do anything.

Yeah, I could have done without Podcast in Afterlife, too. Everything that Podcast did could have been given to Trevor to flesh him out more. Hell, all in all I think Podcast actually had MORE to do than Trevor. Trevor got relegated to a C-Plot about Slimer.

Yeah unlike Podcast, I don't dislike Lucky... she just didn't really need to be there, and again took some time away from someone else. If they absolutely needed to keep one, combine Podcast and Lucky's role into one and give it to Lucky. We didn't really need a "surprise intern".

That is true, absolutely. Although it's not really saying a whole lot, given that Trevor's character is... basically nothing, Mom is Mom, and Grooberson is basically the stand-in self-insert for the old fans. In the family, Phoebe is the only one who HAS anything in the way of a character.

I would really prefer that a new crew took on archetypes of the old crew. They got it with Phoebe as the awkward nerd ala Egon. Grooberson works well in the "heart of the team" role of Ray. I think Trevor could be something of a Venkman if they gave him a chance, and Mom is a pretty decent straight-man ala Winston. So actually really, I guess I just want them to do more with Trevor.

Ah. Even that feels like a stretch. It's a common enough trope. Could just as easily been "The Mummy", or any number of things.

I agree with that. Like I said before, the film should've focused more on the Phoebe/Melody relationship and I think that connection and stakes would've been better laid out as a result.

Yeah there's all kinds of fun stuff. Although I think a good way to shake it up with a next entry is to... kind of do that, do a Big Bad... but give them a more grounded adversary, like a Walter Peck on Steroids... do either a competing "Ghostbusters" type group, or possibly even a government agency. Like a somewhat Bad Guy Ghostbusters.

I actually kind of like the idea of a US Federal Agency taking up the role, and trying to shut the Ghostbusters down (again), harkening back to some of the original attitudes of the kind of upstart underdogs going against the grain. I'm thinking of the merchandise alone! A whole new set of sleek equipment the Government Ghostbusters use, which also makes it more sense why the Spengler's would STILL be using the '84 hardware... the government pretty much took everything else.

^ Actually that plot point gives a good way to get a small cameo from someone. The OG '84 equipment got impounded in Frozen Empire. In this scenario, the new stuff would have been absorbed by the government. Have someone from Ghostbuster Past have saved the OG stuff... if you could convince Rick Moranis, EPIC opportunity for a cameo. Or a fun one could be have Oscar Barrett working for the city and pulled some strings to save the equipment. He knows exactly how important it is...

You *COULD* combine this with the multiverse idea. Have the Government Busters build a gateway to the Ghost World... where our laws of physics don't apply...

There's so much you can do this franchise, damn it.

 

Pretty much up right now. The game had been largely considered to be GB3 by the fanbase.

Sony has never really commented on any sort of GB canon.

But. I like things. And I want more of them. We can use a different term, I suppose.

I think there is the makings of a larger franchise of more movies and potentially TV options that could interconnect with each other.

 

Being written by Akyrod and Ramis, and getting the cast back together for the voice acting went a long way...