death penalty

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by Faria, May 26, 2013.

  1. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    ^Perhaps, but outside of a desire for revenge. Have the pro-capital punishment side made a reasoned argument as to why it works. The anti-captial punishment has

    1.>Captial Punishment doesn't act as a deterrent.
    2.>You can free someone who is later found to be innocent, you can't bring them back to life if they've been executed.
     
  2. RobertVA

    RobertVA Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Crimes heinous enough to currently be considered capital offenses are heinous enough to deserve the solo cell except for showers and solitary periods in a small exercise pen (wrists shackled together and to waist while being moved between cell and shower or exercise pen). Should have daytime lighting (no view of outdoors) and controlled access to reading material and music.

    While there are doubts the death penalty deters people who are not yet in prison, it certainly deters the condemed from killing prison staff and other inmates after the execution.

    There's also the issue that offenders sentenced to life without the possibility parole don't have the risk of execution if they kill another inmate or a member of the prison staff.
     
  3. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not only is the death penalty not a deterrent, it could even be an encouragement.

    Meaning: If a criminal believes that what he or she is about to do, is a capital offense and they will be executed for it, they may decide to go out in a blaze of glory so to speak, in the assumption that they have nothing to lose.
     
  4. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't have a problem with it ethically for criminals who are guilty of horrendous crimes as long as they get the full and fair due process, which is quite lengthy and expensives.

    However, as a practical matter, I don't think it works to well. It's been shown to not be a deterant. It costs more and ties up more of the legal system. Plus, the stress it places on the jury can cause problems like we just saw in the Jodi Arias trial.

    So, ethically, it's all right in some cases but practically not really worthwhile.

    Mr Awe
     
  5. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed. Beside the OP, I don't think anyone here argued that the death penalty is moral, practical, or effective.

    My "ill-natured joke", as you call it, was a response to the particularly bad taste of the topic, brought forth by another Italian. As I said, it was playful prancing, and if you read the original exchange, it was quite apparently so. But I guess humour is something that escapes you. If you prefer, I can offer a point-by-point discussion of why and how Italy sucks, completed with in-depth analysis of national politics, cultural context, and a number of personal anecdotes. I have no troubles harshly criticizing my country, just as I have no troubles telling a joke or two about it being awesome. I know it might come as a surprise to you, but not it's not mandatory to be dull and aggrieved all the time.

    My dislike of Lega Nord has nothing to do with them being lower-class, and anything with them being xenophobes and arseholes.
     
  6. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    It can never be ethically right, sure some crimes can bring out the worst in us, i.e. That the perpetrator sould be executed, but that is our emotions talking.

    But as has already been pointed out wrongful execution can occur. i.e a person who was found guilty but was later found to be innocent.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

    No moral or ethically or in fact any argument can get around the fact that an innocent person could be found guilty even of a horrendous crime and executed only for it to be discovered later that they were innocent.

    The question is how many innoncents are we willing to be executed?, the correct answer is of course none.

    How would pro-capital punishment supporters feel if one of their loved ones was tried, found guilty, went through the appeals process, and was executed only for new evidence to turn up later proving their innocene. WOuld they still support the death penalty?
     
  7. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    What would those, who profess to accept execution of the innocent as the cost of justice, say if they themselves were the ones to be wrongfully executed? I guess most of them assume it would never, ever happen happen to them.
     
  8. Tora Ziyal

    Tora Ziyal Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You have some pretty detailed opinions about how to manage a prison. I can't help wondering... Do you actually have experience working in corrections (as I do) and/or a degree in criminal justice, or have you just been watching a lot of TV?

    A variation on "suicide by cop". That definitely happens. :(
     
  9. RobertVA

    RobertVA Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    They're called "Supermax" prisons

    Some inmates are bad enough precautions need to be taken to protect other inmates and the prison staff. However, the way some facilities have put naked inmates in silent pitch black solitary confinement seems extreme.
     
  10. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    Of topic, but do you work at a jail in Baltimore? Do you want to comment on what happened in the city jail?

    I know the jail there is pretty crappy overall due to many factors (including age of the building). On the other hand, the Arlington jail got four stars on Yelp :D
     
  11. Tora Ziyal

    Tora Ziyal Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Wow, I worked in corrections for 15 years and never knew that! ;) Now, let's try again... Are your opinions about best practices in corrections based on actual knowledge of the field, or are they just... opinions?

    Four stars on Yelp. :lol:

    Some random thoughts:

    I'm totally shocked by the extent of gang control of BCDC. I'm not shocked that there is a gang problem in general. But how it got as bad as it did, I honestly have no idea.

    In my experience, most correctional employees are decent people. Some really care about making their little part of the world safer and/or helping the inmates. And then there are the ones who make everyone else look bad.

    I'm assuming that the female officers who were indicted were affiliated in some way with the gang before they were hired as officers and took the job specifically to infiltrate the jail. That was happening a lot of places. A few years ago, TPTB started looking at possible gang connections as part of pre-employment investigations, but these women were hired before then.

    I think Secretary Maynard deserves a little credit that he isn't getting: he was the one who called in the FBI in the first place, and now that they've done their thing, he's moved his office into BCDC and is overseeing it directly for a while.

    Keeping contraband out of a jail or prison is not as easy as some people assume. But, from what I'm reading about what was going on there, there are a lot of things that should've been done differently/better.

    Oh, yeah... yes, I did work in a correctional facility in Baltimore, but I've been on disability for a couple years. I'm way out of the loop by now.
     
  12. RobertVA

    RobertVA Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    If I wanted to answer I would have responded the first time. Don't assume things about me I don't clearly type
     
  13. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    For what it's worth about supermax prisons. There was a documentary that compared and contrasted two prisons. One was a supermax prison that had 23 1/2 hour lockdown. The other allowed prisoners free access to most facilities and relied on a privilege system where those who broke the rules lost their privileges. Keep in mind these are for the same offense, many of which were capital offenses. The more open facility was safer for the staff, cheaper to run, had fewer disciplinary problems, etc. (not to mention, of course, that it also had lower rates of depression and attempted suicide among inmates). As one guard in the Arlington County jail said, "we discovered if you treat people like animals, they'll start to behave like animals."

    There are reports that infiltration is a deliberate tactic by Baltimore gangs. A disturbingly large number of correctional officers are fired for failing to disclose something that later turned up in a background check. However, it also appears to be testimony to the charisma of the particular gang leader since he managed to recruit unaffiliated officers as well.
     
  14. Tora Ziyal

    Tora Ziyal Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If I were really assuming, I wouldn't have asked the question.

    So what kind of limits are you suggesting should be put on music?

    Yup. Maryland actually closed their supermax a few years ago, because they'd figured out by then the importance of providing programming for inmates, and the building wasn't designed for it. The newest maximum security prison (out in Western Md.) has a behavior modification program that operates something like you describe. I don't remember how many of the inmates take part in it. It's not the whole facility.

    I get so tired of people ranting about how prisoners shouldn't be allowed to attend classes or watch TV or whatever. What they don't understand is that busy inmates make for a safer, more secure facility.

    Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Sorry if I wasn't very clear.
     
  15. Pingfah

    Pingfah Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Oh hey, when I used to stay in Baltimore, upon waking every morning I was staring right at that Supermax prison in Baltimore, Chesapeake Detention Centre. It was right opposite me. Awful view :lol:
     
  16. Tora Ziyal

    Tora Ziyal Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Where the heck were you staying, that you had that view? The Maryland Reception, Diagnostic and Classification Center? ;)

    You must've been here fairly recently, calling it the Chesapeake Detention Center. Come to think of it, your spelling would actually be appropriate. The street that happens to run behind the place is called Centre St. Yes, spelled that way, in Baltimore. No idea why.
     
  17. Pingfah

    Pingfah Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Just on the other side of the Jones Falls Expressway.
     
  18. Tora Ziyal

    Tora Ziyal Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Ah, nice.
     
  19. Pingfah

    Pingfah Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, it's a hell of a lot better than being on the same side of the Expressway, that's for sure :lol:
     
  20. Tora Ziyal

    Tora Ziyal Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Now don't be picky! You'd have your choice of six different correctional facilities to stay in. ;)