Another data point in the Global Warming saga

[Alpha_Geek]

hint of what the upcoming report contains:

“I am a skeptic…Global warming has become a new religion.”
- Nobel Prize Winner for Physics, Ivar Giaever.

“Since I am no longer affiliated with any organization nor receiving any funding, I can speak quite frankly….As a scientist I remain skeptical.”
- Atmospheric Scientist Dr. Joanne Simpson, the first woman in the world to receive a PhD in meteorology and formerly of NASA who has authored more than 190 studies and has been called “among the most preeminent scientists of the last 100 years.”

Warming fears are the “worst scientific scandal in the history…When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.”
- UN IPCC Japanese Scientist Dr. Kiminori Itoh, an award-winning PhD environmental physical chemist.

“The IPCC has actually become a closed circuit; it doesn’t listen to others. It doesn’t have open minds… I am really amazed that the Nobel Peace Prize has been given on scientifically incorrect conclusions by people who are not geologists,”
- Indian geologist Dr. Arun D. Ahluwalia at Punjab University and a board member of the UN-supported International Year of the Planet.

“The models and forecasts of the UN IPCC "are incorrect because they only are based on mathematical models and presented results at scenarios that do not include, for example, solar activity.”
- Victor Manuel Velasco Herrera, a researcher at the Institute of Geophysics of the National Autonomous University of Mexico

“It is a blatant lie put forth in the media that makes it seem there is only a fringe of scientists who don’t buy into anthropogenic global warming.”
- U.S Government Atmospheric Scientist Stanley B. Goldenberg of the Hurricane Research Division of NOAA.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

....and here's the link to the full report!

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index....ecord_id=2674e64f-802a-23ad-490b-bd9faf4dcdb7

There's a PDF there for your reading pleasure.

This report indicates that for every scientist stating that global warming is artificially created, there are 12 scientists that disagree. It also reiterates the past decade of global cooling.

AG

 

[BCI]

There are not 12 times as many scientists who disagree with global warming. The report of the IPCC was a compilation. The 52 people mentioned had the sole work of compiling what thousands of scientists around the globe said.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

There are not 12 times as many scientists who disagree with global warming. The report of the IPCC was a compilation. The 52 people mentioned had the sole work of compiling what thousands of scientists around the globe said.

Are the names of those thousands of others listed on that compilation? It ain't science if you haven't peer-reviewed and published. LOL

 

[BCI]

Spare me your wackjob conspiracy theories. As if you knew anything...

 

[3D Master]

:scratches head:

What conspiracy theories? I see none here.

 

[BCI]

Arctic ice volume lowest ever as globe warms: U.N.

Although the world's average temperature in 2008 was, at 14.3 degrees Celsius (57.7 degrees Fahrenheit), by a fraction of a degree the coolest so far this century, the direction toward a warmer climate remained steady, it reported.

"What is happening in the Arctic is one of the key indicators of global warming," Michel Jarraud, Secretary General of the World Meteorological Organization (WMO), said. "The overall trend is still upwards."

"This decade is almost 0.2 degrees (Celsius) warmer compared to the previous decade. We have to look at it in that way, comparing decades not years," Peter Stott, a climate scientist at Britain's Hadley Center, which provided data for the WMO report, told Reuters in London.

And the text mentions a catastrophy that wasn't even on the news:

"Climate extremes, including devastating floods, severe and persistent droughts, snow storms, heat waves and cold waves were recorded in many parts of the world," the agency said. In many of these, hundreds or even thousands of people died.

Among the disasters was Cyclone Nargis, which killed some 78,000 in Myanmar's southern delta region in early May. In the western Atlantic and Caribbean there were 16 major tropical storms, eight of which developed into hurricanes.

In an average year, there are 11 storms of which six become hurricanes and two become major hurricanes. In 2008, five major hurricanes developed, and for the first time on record six tropical storms in a row made landfall in the United States.

The WMO says the 10 hottest years since global records were first kept in 1850 have all been since 1997, with the warmest at 14.79 C in 2005. Countries have been struggling for years to reach agreement on how to halt the trend.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

Spare me your wackjob conspiracy theories. As if you knew anything...

Whackjob? LOL I lived with a published reproductive biologist for years and gained a working knowledge of how the scientific community works.

Consequently, I understand the need for cross-checks that peer review allows for, and the importance of publishing scientific papers.

So... I repeat my question. Did these thousands of scientists that you cite put their name on the IPCC paper? What? Nope? Wow.

 

[USS KG5]

Alpha Geek is right - peer review and published papers are the core of the scientific community. Without discussion, the ability to repeat results, and the outing of any potential agendas or funding issues that may bias results science is meaningless.

It is always worth remembering science is a method - not a big body of scary facts as the unwashed masses often seem to think. Scientists practise that method and should be equally happy if their results show something different to their hypothesis.

A report paid for by Greenpeace that finds climate change is a fact is equally as doubtful as one saying it is not sponsored by the V8 owners club.

Everyone has an agenda, except me.

 

[BCI]

Alpha Geek is right - peer review and published papers are the core of the scientific community. Without discussion, the ability to repeat results, and the outing of any potential agendas or funding issues that may bias results science is meaningless.

It is always worth remembering science is a method - not a big body of scary facts as the unwashed masses often seem to think. Scientists practise that method and should be equally happy if their results show something different to their hypothesis.

A report paid for by Greenpeace that finds climate change is a fact is equally as doubtful as one saying it is not sponsored by the V8 owners club.

Everyone has an agenda, except me.

AlphaGeek is not right. Living with a biologist does not make you an expert on climate change.

And for the extra sceptical, I posted a link a few pages back, to a site sponsored by Shell, the oil company. The scientist sponsored by Shell, the oil company, said the following: humans cause climate change. He also said that rising oceans will, during the next fifty years, destroy 70% of all larger cities. Cities like Mumbay or New York will cease to exist because of man made climate change.

It is really that simple.

 

[Marc]

Arctic ice volume lowest ever as globe warms: U.N.

Although the world's average temperature in 2008 was, at 14.3 degrees Celsius (57.7 degrees Fahrenheit), by a fraction of a degree the coolest so far this century, the direction toward a warmer climate remained steady, it reported.

"What is happening in the Arctic is one of the key indicators of global warming," Michel Jarraud, Secretary General of the World Meteorological Organization (WMO), said. "The overall trend is still upwards."

"This decade is almost 0.2 degrees (Celsius) warmer compared to the previous decade. We have to look at it in that way, comparing decades not years," Peter Stott, a climate scientist at Britain's Hadley Center, which provided data for the WMO report, told Reuters in London.

And the text mentions a catastrophy that wasn't even on the news:

"Climate extremes, including devastating floods, severe and persistent droughts, snow storms, heat waves and cold waves were recorded in many parts of the world," the agency said. In many of these, hundreds or even thousands of people died.

Among the disasters was Cyclone Nargis, which killed some 78,000 in Myanmar's southern delta region in early May. In the western Atlantic and Caribbean there were 16 major tropical storms, eight of which developed into hurricanes.

In an average year, there are 11 storms of which six become hurricanes and two become major hurricanes. In 2008, five major hurricanes developed, and for the first time on record six tropical storms in a row made landfall in the United States.

The WMO says the 10 hottest years since global records were first kept in 1850 have all been since 1997, with the warmest at 14.79 C in 2005. Countries have been struggling for years to reach agreement on how to halt the trend.

And now NASA has put out a report that 2 trillion tonnes of ice has gone from Iceland, Greenland, Artic and Antartic in the past 5 years

It's raised the sea level by 5mm (doens't sound like much when factor in just how much sea water there is).

It's releaseing additional methane into the atmosphere as pockets of the gas are breached.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/17/2448553.htm?section=justin

Not covered in the report is the impact of the cold water entering the oceans - it drops the ocean tempratures when then negatively impacts evaporation levels which then impacts rainfall.

Now maybe it's becasue of natural CO2 in the atmosphere but sure as shit, running around doing thing while continually pumping more crap into air isn't going to help things. There's 6 billion people on this planet and no escape option. Things screw up to much and mankind is totally fucked.

But the real killer is when the climate change denialist try and use the Y2K issue as an example where we spend billions and nothing happened. They can't comprehend that nothing happened becasue the money was spend. It's quite possible (in fact probably very likely) that serious problems could of arise if nothing had been done which probably would of cost more to fix.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

AlphaGeek is not right. Living with a biologist does not make you an expert on climate change.

Never said I was, I said that I understood how the scientific community works and what they consider VALID, and that's peer reviewed publication.

On a personal note, have you ever dug up fossilized sand dollars 30 miles inland? I have. How'd they get there? Did some ancient precursor society melt and thaw the caps already? Nope. The climate changes all the time. It changed before man got here, it'll change while we're here, and it will change long after we're gone.

To think man could (or should if her were actually able...) halt this natural process is arrogance of the worst kind.

But I kind of expect that from the likes of Al Gore.

 

[PlixTixiplik]

AlphaGeek is not right. Living with a biologist does not make you an expert on climate change.

Never said I was, I said that I understood how the scientific community works and what they consider VALID, and that's peer reviewed publication.

On a personal note, have you ever dug up fossilized sand dollars 30 miles inland? I have. How'd they get there? Did some ancient precursor society melt and thaw the caps already? Nope. The climate changes all the time. It changed before man got here, it'll change while we're here, and it will change long after we're gone.

To think man could (or should if her were actually able...) halt this natural process is arrogance of the worst kind.

But I kind of expect that from the likes of Al Gore.

OK - first of all the fact that you attribute sand dollar fossils 30 miles inland to higher eustatic sea levels is somewhat eye-opening.

Also, you apparently haven't read the IPCC report because if you had you would know that:

1) it was peer-reviewed, by several hundred reviewers it appears (towards the end of the chapter).

2) the thousands of other scientists who contributed are included in the IPCC report, as each chapter cites the hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific papers that the report is based on.

Of course climates change naturally, but it is demonstrable that current change is not primarily natural. All of the discussion about solar variability, the Pleistocene, and climate models is actually somewhat irrelevant. Just read about the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum to see what large and rapid releases of greenhouse gases do. They cause warming, ocean acidification, changes to ocean circulation, etc. That's what is happening now, only we're the ones releasing the greenhouse gases.

-MEC

 

[3D Master]

You know, it's still odd, that every graphic of the effect of CO2 on temperature I've ever seen, has the temperatures rise, and only eight centuries later those the CO2 rise, and similarly, the temperatures LOWER eight centuries BEFORE the CO2 lowers.

But eh, I trust ya, CO2 is an extremely important factor when it comes to temperature; so much so, that CO2 is the only thing plotted in all the global warming scientists' graphics - despite the fact they defy and disprove man-made CO2-based global warming - and man-made global warming is a fact!

And it's still odd, that mars lost half it's ice caps between 95 and 97, it's odd that all the planets and moons are increasing in luminosity across the solar system, just like Earth.

But eh, I trust ya, Earth is heating up because of our CO2, probably the same reason - man-made CO2 - the other planets are heating up too, eh? Man-made global warming is a fact!

It's still odd, global warming scientists can only get global warming if they outright ignore and don't use easy to get temperature measurements of places, and make up much higher temperatures than those temperatures actually are.

But eh, I trust ya, they're guesses are right, the measurements are wrong. Man-mad global warming is a fact!

 

[USS KG5]

AlphaGeek is not right. Living with a biologist does not make you an expert on climate change.

You do realise that I stated exactly which part of his post I agreed with right after saying he was right and that had NOTHING to do with him living with a biologist.

In fact he did not say that living with a biologist made him an expert on climate change, merely that it gave him a working knowledge of the scientific community and how they work - what is wrong with that?

And for the extra sceptical, I posted a link a few pages back, to a site sponsored by Shell, the oil company. The scientist sponsored by Shell, the oil company, said the following: humans cause climate change. He also said that rising oceans will, during the next fifty years, destroy 70% of all larger cities. Cities like Mumbay or New York will cease to exist because of man made climate change.

Sounds like a good scientist by my own reckoning - I will check out the link.

 

[BCI]

AlphaGeek is not right. Living with a biologist does not make you an expert on climate change.

You do realise that I stated exactly which part of his post I agreed with right after saying he was right and that had NOTHING to do with him living with a biologist.

In fact he did not say that living with a biologist made him an expert on climate change, merely that it gave him a working knowledge of the scientific community and how they work - what is wrong with that?

He said repeatedly that the IPCC report was not peer reviewed, he also quoted a text repeatedly that said the IPCC report had only 50 authors, when it actually draws on hundreds of individual studies.

Both statements are so blatantly false I cannot believe he knows anything substantial about how science works.

And for the extra sceptical, I posted a link a few pages back, to a site sponsored by Shell, the oil company. The scientist sponsored by Shell, the oil company, said the following: humans cause climate change. He also said that rising oceans will, during the next fifty years, destroy 70% of all larger cities. Cities like Mumbay or New York will cease to exist because of man made climate change.

Sounds like a good scientist by my own reckoning - I will check out the link.

I'm afraid you wont find it. It was in the last "climate change is a lie" thread, but unfortunately the science and technology forum archives are quite short. The thread is gone for good, and I do not have a bookmark. Sorry.

 

[Marc]

You know, it's still odd, that every graphic of the effect of CO2 on temperature I've ever seen, has the temperatures rise, and only eight centuries later those the CO2 rise, and similarly, the temperatures LOWER eight centuries BEFORE the CO2 lowers.

But eh, I trust ya, CO2 is an extremely important factor when it comes to temperature; so much so, that CO2 is the only thing plotted in all the global warming scientists' graphics - despite the fact they defy and disprove man-made CO2-based global warming - and man-made global warming is a fact!

And it's still odd, that mars lost half it's ice caps between 95 and 97, it's odd that all the planets and moons are increasing in luminosity across the solar system, just like Earth.

In your brilliant attempt at sarcasm you've overlook an important point.

There's no life on mars, the melting of it's polar ice caps has no impact.

Earth on the other hand has over 6 billion human inhabitatants and millions of other species of bird, fish, animal, insect and reptile life all of which could be wiped out if we don't stop pumping out the amount shit we do into the atmosphere.

 

[Marc]

And new report out from researchers in the Iceland and Norway is disputing the notion that cosmic rays are an influence on surface temprature
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081217075138.htm

 

[3D Master]

You know, it's still odd, that every graphic of the effect of CO2 on temperature I've ever seen, has the temperatures rise, and only eight centuries later those the CO2 rise, and similarly, the temperatures LOWER eight centuries BEFORE the CO2 lowers.

But eh, I trust ya, CO2 is an extremely important factor when it comes to temperature; so much so, that CO2 is the only thing plotted in all the global warming scientists' graphics - despite the fact they defy and disprove man-made CO2-based global warming - and man-made global warming is a fact!

And it's still odd, that mars lost half it's ice caps between 95 and 97, it's odd that all the planets and moons are increasing in luminosity across the solar system, just like Earth.

In your brilliant attempt at sarcasm you've overlook an important point.

There's no life on mars, the melting of it's polar ice caps has no impact.

Earth on the other hand has over 6 billion human inhabitatants and millions of other species of bird, fish, animal, insect and reptile life all of which could be wiped out if we don't stop pumping out the amount shit we do into the atmosphere.

:sighs:

And in your brilliant attempt to sound clever you missed the bloody obvious point: whether there is global warming doesn't matter, whether it is MAN-MADE IS!

And it ISN'T!

It's NATURAL. That means unless we develop deflector shields any time soon to block solar radiation more effective than the planet's magnetosphere, and a method to control whether and a way to control how much heat the planet itself is producing, there is absolutely NOTHING we can do about it.

 

[Neopeius]

A volcano has the power of 10 thousand Hirsohima nuclear bombs. The amount of polution pumped into the atmosphere of one, makes all our efforts look insects in comparison.

That makes for pretty copy. That doesn't conform with what I've seen. For instance:

Dr. Marie Edmonds, a PhD in Earth Sciences, says that

Volcanoes emit around 100,000,000 tonnes of CO2 a year. Compare that to man-made emissions of CO2 which comes to about 10,000,000,000 tonnes of CO2 per year. So volcanoes emit around 1/100th of CO2 that we do and are therefore insignificant in terms of global warming. Sulphur dioxide on the other hand, volcanoes emit around a tenth of the anthropogenic emissions of SO2. That forms regional smog.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/questions/question/2008/

That's because it was not warmer during the middle ages.

This conflicts with what I've researched as an historian. Things got really cold and rainy and crappy starting around 1314/1315. While I've no doubt that we have warmed back up to where we were in the happy times of the High Middle Ages, I don't think we can glibly dismiss the Little Ice Age. It is well documented, historically.