Mytran Which is why the the Big-E's crew was 203... And the miniature is exactly how big? Why'd they do that, and by how much?
The miniature came in at slightly under it's intended length , I believe (133 or 134" sounds about right). This is probably to minor differences during modular manufacturing and assembly (and really, a variance of 0.75% is not that big a deal for a TV model) However, the length the model maker's plans show (which was built at 4x for the final filming model) would have put it at 135". David Shaw's reproductions of those plans show all the measurements in detail: http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/jefferies_1964.php So for instance, the saucer was planned to be 60" in diameter, but in fact it turned out to be nearer 59.5" on average (the saucer is not perfectly symmetrical). However, if we go by the intended figures: 135" x 96 = 12,960" = 1,080' It is important to note that this is most certainly NOT what the manufacturers had in mind however - length of the fictional ship was not their primary concern - building a decent film-able model was.
While I do not know if this is the place where it originated, Phil Broad ran www.cloudster.com (still defunct, unfortunately) and applied a "standard" scale for the actual 11 footer VFX model of the TOS Enterprise and arrived at 1,080 feet. Interestingly, it seems to match several interiors - except for a circular and centered bridge. Bob
Worry not, friends! Much of it survives here: http://web.archive.org/web/20080515223727/www.cloudster.com/VaultLobby.htm
208.5 x 208.5 x 3.14 = 136'503sqft / 431= 317 sqft. 136'503 sqft / 500= 273 sqft. I had calculated the square area of the Enterprise largest deck. As you can see there is plenty of room for all the officers and crew. And that is just one deck. I have not counted the hallways on that deck. Also I have put all living on one deck.
FJ's plans showed that there would be enough space, it's just that if everyone had their own bed (not shared bunk) then most of the Enterprise's interior would be taken up by bedrooms
Y'all have to remember that the Enterprise had around 22 too 26 decks. All the living quarters would be spread out through 2 too 5 decks. Of course on Star Trek VI: The Underdiscovered Country, we seen a crew living quarter with multiple bunks.
I agree entirely, there's no way the Enterprise would have got by without at least double bunks, even if they had eliminated the need for hot-bunking.
This Navy Vessel is 417 feet, the same length as the Enterprise saucer section. Also there are crewmembers standing on the deck of the ships. http://www.yorkship.us/Auxiliaries/AD-14.Dixie.1976.off.SoCal.DN-SC-85-06080.JPG
We don't really know what goes inside a starship saucer - machinery, habitation, transfer utilities, tankage - or how much space is taken by support structures. All we know is that a) every starship would be rattling and echoing with the quoted number of crew if starships were empty shells and b) nevertheless the facilities shown are always cramped in comparison with the total volume available (although the standards of "cramped" vary quite a bit between ENT, TOS and TNG, of course). So the obvious conclusion is that something else vital does take up a lot of space. This more or less forces us back to relying on what onscreen specs we do have on onboard accommodations. In TOS, officers get multi-room suites, even junior officers like Garrovick get their own cabins, but TOS movies might suggest three-high bunking for enlisteds; there are dedicated guest quarters, but very few of those, and a hundred guests means major reshuffling. That's a benchmark of sorts, then. In ENT, officers have somewhat smaller cabins, and we actually get to see enlisteds sharing, despite Archer's saucer being bigger than Kirk's and his crew barely a fifth in number. In TNG, officer accommodations are much bigger, but at one point we see junior officers share, and Scotty's chaperon in "Relics" laments that bigger suites aren't currently available for some reason. Since mere volume ratios don't jibe with our benchmark, we have to accept that different ships (especially in different eras) work with different limitations on habitability - different types and amounts of competing systems, machinery, tankage, whatnot. Also, Kirk has twice Pike's crew, so ship shape and size isn't dictated by crew count, and doesn't dictate crew count. Then there are the various examples of skeleton crews and automated functions. And so we end up with an almost total disconnect between crew and ship size, and with any real-world examples or precedents. Timo Saloniemi
That's great, unfortunately I couldn't access Phil's chart, but maybe his reasoning will suffice: http://web.archive.org/web/20080604...ehicles/STEnterprise/SmithsonianMiniature.htm Bob
Reason, schmeason! Here's the actual document: http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx214/Mytran77/TABLE_OF_DIMENSIONS_zps45531fb5.jpg~original By lucky chance, I saved a copy some years back Shame there's no way to attach it to the archive page.
>We don't really know what goes inside a starship saucer - machinery, habitation, transfer utilities, tankage - or how much space is taken by support structures. IMHO, data presented in The Making of Star Trek's "An Official Biography of a Ship and Its Crew" should be accorded a "canonicity" second only to TOS itself -- which is to say, disregarded ONLY if it violates material presented in TOS. Such material falls under the "original intent" category, does it not, given it represented Roddenberry's own thinking about the nature of "his" starship? Per the primary's deck-by-deck accounting, we "know," thereby, the approximate area occupied by the main computer, which decks provided crew quarters, etc. We're also presented with the "factoid" of Jr. officers sharing quarters with ONE other person, Sr. officers having private quarters. The former would have to be cross-checked against the actual quarters seen on the air, which is to say (off the top of my head) those of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Lts. Uhura & McGivers, (Yeoman) Rand & (Ensign) Garrovick. Given Roddenberry's dislike of bunkrooms' lack of dignity (see TMOST), and the explicit info against such, we flaunt [near-] series "reality" if we posit such aboard the TOS flagship. Given the elimination of bunkrooms, I hardly think Rand or Garrovick could have been hot-bunking. We must thus conclude either that a)Yeoman and Ensign are NOT "junior" officers in TOS or b)TMOST's two cabin type statement notwithstanding, ALL TOS crew had single cabins. Can a 947 ft ship contain sufficient 430 single cabins, or indeed even enough singles to include ranks inclusive of yeomen and ensigns? No canon data cites the makeup of the ship's crew, but informed guesses (Franz Joseph's f'rinstance) could yield an estimate of how many cabins were aboard. Known set sizes (e.g., the TOS hangar, sized relative to a 29-odd ft shuttle; the paired torpedo bays and rec room of TMP) do of course prove (I think the word's the right one) larger ships than 947/1000 ft, but more subtle evidence for such might be drawn from req'd cabin numbers.
Depends on how many enlisted there on are a starship. Especially since we only seem to see ensigns and sometimes crewmen. On a navel vessel, the ship would be mostly enlisted with a percentage of officers to the enlisted.
We should also note that the enlisted folks of NCC-1701 are hardly the cream of the cream and the ship itself hardly the flagship of Starfleet (even if the hero ship of the show). The first season portrays an undisciplined bunch of slackers who often pay for their carelessness with their lives; it might not be thematically necessary to reward them with suite-type accommodation... Or then there's something to those interpretations where two single cabins share hygiene facilities and are essentially double cabins after all - Garrovick's quarters might have been one half of a pair. With Uhura, I guess a) is a possibility, as she could be a department head, slightly senior to Palmer or other Lieutenants seen, and enjoying the associated perks. And Rand could be allocated a room to be used not just as her personal quarters but her office as well, while officers would receive the same standard space but differently allocated. In the end, the general gist of TOS seems to be slight lack of space, rather than overabundance as in TNG and perhaps ENT. This only concerns VIP visitors, though, and we might well assume that the ship can take far more than 430 people (and run on far less than 207), with some of the flexibility familiar from the spinoff shows inherent in the ship's internal design. Timo Saloniemi
Thanks Mytran for having saved documents like that. It just shows that for treknological materials on the internet, a "better save, than sorry" attitude is recommendable. What makes the official description in TMoST somewhat difficult, is that we do not know whether the original text had been written for the Pike / pilot version of the ship or for the regular series. TMoST was written around the time of “The Ultimate Computer” and if you look carefully, you’ll notice that all the “upgrades” in the text reflect exclusively information from this particular episode, while other premise changes (sickbay is on Deck 5 according to “Amok Time” which “Elaan of Troyius” later re-emphasizes) do not. Had they wanted to illustrate a cabin shared by two members of the crew, I’m confident we would have either seen two beds in the standard cabin or the ones in the central core area (e.g. “Charlie X”, “The Conscience of the King”). As a matter of fact, I think the Karidians had such a double cabin (two bedrooms, one bathroom, one living area) but this design never showed up on FJ’s radar, obviously. Regarding Yeoman Rand and Ensign Garrovick, I think we are looking at two special cases. Rand was essentially Kirk’s secretary with access to all kind of information, she couldn’t possibly share with a roommate, thus she had the privilege of a single cabin. In the case of Garrovick, he apparently moved into the cabin of / replacing the head of security, after his superiors had all been killed by the cloud creature. With limited space aboard a ship, there is really no reason to keep a vacated single cabin empty, IMHO, especially if Garrovick was about to receive his promotion to lieutenant. Bob
Given that we often saw crewmen not only the recreation rooms (despite their sparse furnishings) but the hallways as well (lounging around, gossiping with their mates) I'm inclined to think that most people had very little personal space of their own. It might also be an in-universe reason to justify the unusually wide corridors - a feature that starship designers found essential as the hallways themselves became multi-use spaces. Doubtless some new Admiral found all this type of behaviour from the "lower orders" not to his liking and instituted fleet-wide reforms which ultimately led to the large Recreation Deck we saw in TMP: the working man is now neatly corralled away from the officer class. Regarding Rand, I agree that her position would have necessitated a single cabin and office. McGivers is a Lieutenant and although not a department head like Uhura is nonetheless a specialist. However, unknown and largely ignored by the captain, I would imagine she has few facilities assigned to her aboard ship and may in fact do most of her studies and research from her own cabin. When we first meet Ensign Garrovick he has just been promoting to "The New Security Officer" (AKA Security Chief I assume) so it is not unreasonable that he has already asked a NCO to move his stuff into the appropriate cabin (he does give a quick look around when he walks through the door later, perhaps double checking) If it was his original cabin that he shared with another Ensign (with the second bed just off camera) then it does raise the question of why there is only one cylinder wardrobe and no additional storage facilities - or do they share EVERYTHING when they share - hot-uniforming maybe?
I thought all officers got a cabin while enlisted (other than Yeoman Rand) were the ones we never saw if they had bunks or not in TOS?
Good point, even though the first season (or half of it anyway) also tried to portray these people as working in the hallways (repairing, installing, tearing down etc) and running important errands and whatnot... Fair enough. Although it might be that there existed cargo elevators or ramps that were wider than the standard turbolift doors, and anything being moved on those would call for the wider corridors, too. We did see bulky furniture and machinery on occasion... I still insist the TMP deck was there all along, spanning Decks 3 through 5 during that thrilling chase scene that kept us all glued to our sets during "Let That Be Your Last Act, Please"... I support any efforts to turn the use of one and the same set for multiple facilities into a virtue! It would make sense for Starfleet to build standard cabins and then accommodate a variety of functions inside those walls: pure accommodation, combined accommodation and office or study spaces, workshops devoid of accommodation, etc. (Or then he checks for gaseous anomalies...) In other episodes, Chiefs of Security were high-ranking officers, essentially the commanders of an onboard Marine company, and one or two redshirts always wore Lieutenant braid. "Obsession" thus marks a major departure in only showing braidless Security personnel. Are we assume that each and every one of them was enlisted, thus allowing the "new guy" to be their boss? What killed all the other officers, and I mean all? We might do better assuming that Garrovick wasn't a department head or even a particularly highly positioned underling; his in-universe significance would come purely from the fact that he was his father's son. I'd argue we just missed the door connecting the two mirrored cabins at the wall opposite the wardrobe (the set does have a door that goes nowhere on that wall). There could be a Shane Johnson -style bathroom between the cabins, or then not; corridor showers might be standard for juniors. Timo Saloniemi