A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by TheGodBen, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    If so, Braga may have been burned in effigy for less reason than suspected. :(
     
  2. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Hmm, while I wouldn't call this a stellar episode only one star is a bit low, imo. I rather like the angle of the understimated Neelix figuring out what was going on. As for "Janeway not trusting Chakotay" I saw it more as a matter of Tuvok not trusting him and Janeway listening to the advise of her closest friend and confidant. You can tell that Chakotay knows this by the looks he gives Tuvok.

    This all ties in with one of the more underdeveloped but great potential dynamics on the show and that is the dynamic between Chakotay and Tuvok and their roles as Janeway's advisors. You can see this dynamic shift a bit as "Basics" comes around. I won't go into details here but look for it if you think of it.
     
  3. neogothboy74

    neogothboy74 Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Well Braga did have some good ideas. I just think he had a lot of bad ones too. And it's harder to remember the good things when you've got 'Threshold' to answer for.
     
  4. TedShatner10

    TedShatner10 Commodore Commodore

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    What about "Profit & Lace" or any S1 episode from TNG? And I was beginning to suspect Braga wasn't quite as bad as he is widely seen when he was hamstrung by UPN, Taylor, and Berman, even if he wasn't as good as Ronald D. Moore or Michael Piller (at his TNG height, at least).
     
  5. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    That's the whole idea... each person comes up with ideas, both good and bad. And the executive producer ultimately decides the course. If that person doesn't quite "get it", then the choices become happenstance. Looks like that went on more than we'd have liked.

    When there's a really bad episode, I wonder how apparent it is from the screenplay... does it become a matter of translating from text to product in order to really see it for what it is? Or, is it a matter of production choices... certainly, some bad episodes could have been salvaged.

    Anyway, Braga did have some good ideas and I'm glad they were realized. A full season of hiatus on "Happy Trek" would have been fine with me. Kind of a drawn out "Year of Hell". Whenever we go to the next episode, the ship is miraculously repaired (argh). I'd have liked to see some issues drag on a few episodes (aside from the ongoing food replicator problem early on). It would bring more plausibility to the whole story.
     
  6. Tachyon

    Tachyon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager


    :(

    Investigations in Tachyon's scale: ****
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2009
  7. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I agree with your statements here, except for the one about Chakotay. I think he was a good character in seasons 1-3, even if he could have been used better. Tuvok and Neelix were OK too in those seasons but I must agree on Kim. He was actually better in the books.

    As for "Investigations", I really like that episode. I have no problems with Neelix being the one who finally reveals who the traitor is. The only thing that I do find somewhat unrealistic is Paris leaving the ship. I mean, a human stranded 70 000 light-years from Earth suddenly throws away the only chance he has to get back to the Alpha Quadrant, just to join a Talaxian convoy. OK, the plan was that he was supposed to be frustrated with his life on the ship but this doesnt make sense, especially since he did seem to have become a role model ever since "Caretaker" and been happy with his life on Voyager.

    However, I liked the Jonas arc and "Investigations" was a good conclusion to it.

    I'll give it 4 points out of 5

    neogothboy wrote:
    Not to mention "Fury"........

    But I have to agree, Braga did some good things too. But you know how it is. If you create a welfare society, a successful company or something similar and then make some really stupid decisions which ruins everything, then you'll be remembered not for what tou did build up but for what you destroyed.
     
  8. TedShatner10

    TedShatner10 Commodore Commodore

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Didn't "Threshold" occur on Jeri Taylor's watch as well? I'm not so sure the ensemble was watered down as badly as fans claim when Chuckles and Kim had quite a lot to chew on in "Timeless", one of the better episodes from the reasonable Season Five.
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Only because the blonde was dead. And even then, her pulped and bloodied corpse still took up a lot of screen time.

    I never understood why they never tried getting other Borg drunk to see if it would help with the war effort?
     
  10. neogothboy74

    neogothboy74 Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    She was around, and probably could have done something to fix or stop it, but Braga actually wrote the teleplay.
     
  11. TedShatner10

    TedShatner10 Commodore Commodore

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Why, as producer, didn't Jeri Taylor heavily redraft or red light the teleplay? And it is not as if Voyager was the only long running sci-fi series which turned out a famously bad episode, jeez, even Braga disowned it.
     
  12. neogothboy74

    neogothboy74 Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I never suggested that it was.
     
  13. Tachyon

    Tachyon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Voyager had it's flaws, but it is still pretty amazing nevertheless. :)
     
  14. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    It hovered around 2/2.5 for most of the episode, but in the final 15 minutes the whole thing just fell completely apart for me and I had to mark it down. And Neelix's cheery line to Tuvok after having just KILLED A MAN infuriated me so much that I literally shouted at the screen.

    I've never been sure about who was in charge during those first two seasons. Both Piller and Taylor were EPs (so was Berman but I don't believe he ever headed the writing staff) and Piller was probably the senior of the two since he worked on TNG a year longer than Taylor. At the same time Piller had been considering leaving Trek since the end of TNG's third season and I had the sense during Voyager that he had one foot out the door.

    Sometimes bad episodes just happen. Scripts have to be submitted on time in order to start production and there are times when you have to allow a bad episode through the cracks because you don't have time to work on it anymore. An example of this would be Prodigal Daughter in DS9's final season, which wasn't exactly a bad episode but it was a boring one. Thompson and Weddle were tasked with writting the episode but they could never come up with a premise which worked and eventually Ron Moore had to help them out because they were running out of time. This is a quote from him in the DS9 Companion:

    This is possibly what happened on Threshold.
     
  15. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Cats in the Cradle (**½)

    This isn't a great episode, but it does have some nice character moments and it ties in nicely to one of my favourite TOS episodes. Meeting the Old Ones mentioned by Korob and Sylvia in Catspaw is something I hoped would happen for a long time, but the idea that they live in the Delta Quadrant doesn't seem to tie in with the previous claim that they live in some other realm without sensation. But I guess you just have to go along with it.

    The story is fairly pedestrian, Voyager comes across aliens with magic powers, Voyager asks to be sent home, the aliens turn out to not be what they seem and then then turn into giant cats and chase Janeway and Paris through some corridors. This is just covering old ground that we already saw on TOS.

    However this episode has some great character development for Harry Kim who really comes alive as a character like I've not seen him before. He dies, of course, but the heroic sacrifice he makes by standing up to the giant cat with only a sword in hand was deeply emotional. But then Shmullus goes and undoes the emotional punch of this episode by reviving Kim with some medical jargon.

    And I'm not sure why they decided to use the same puppets from TOS when they could have come up with something much better using computer graphics. At least you can't see the strings this time.

    A fun outing that gets a little silly but some great character work.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2009
  16. Tachyon

    Tachyon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Good one GodBen! :lol:

    I fully agree with your review, by the way. You said it all. :p
     
  17. neogothboy74

    neogothboy74 Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    I don't know. Cat's in the Cradle might actually be the best Trek ever made. How I overlooked it all these years is a wonder! :rommie:
     
  18. Robotech Master

    Robotech Master Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Cats are truly the scourge of the galaxy.
     
  19. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    Agreed. I really hated that scene where the giant cats kept on hailing Voyager with an annoying scratching sound because they wanted to be let in, and Janeway had to shout at them to stop.

    But, like all cats, they found a way in anyhow and started chasing Neelix through deck 7. Actually, that bit was fun.
     
  20. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

    hehe, good one. I actually needed to search memory alpha to remember the date.