STID realistic?

[YellowSubmarine]

If they dropped the device in the volcano, there would be no prime directive subplot, nor Spock disregarding the feelings of others subplot, which was the point of the entire sequence.

As for the in-universe reason, we arrived there mid-action, do we really want to sit there and watch all they did the entire night that forced them to proceed in this way? People have done much weirder things in the real world, that's not even puzzling. Why would experienced campers run out in the dead cold in their underwear and jump off trees to their deaths en masse? I have no idea, but it has happened. I am demanding an explanation for that before ruling the real world plausible.

Does it matter if Spock had to rest the device on a still hard surface outside of the lava after several unsuccessful attempts to drop it, or they discovered the automatic opener of the devices had malfunctioned because of a serial defect, or they were building the device right there and right then, and didn't expect the volcano to start erupting so soon and had to improvise, or Spock had just gone in Kirk-mode?

 

[Timewalker]

So maybe someone can explain it to me, because in all the 3 times I saw this movie, I still don't get why nuSpock had to physically go into the volcano in the first place. Why didn't they just drop the bomb out of the shuttle and operate it remotely?

Because it's more dramatic that way.

Is it really that dramatic? 'Cause you know there's no chance nuSpock wouldn't survive. If I'm sitting in front of my TV musing on the plotholes and the nonsense that this bomb essentially acted like an on/off switch not only above ground, but deep into the planet's mantle as well... it obviously wasn't that dramatic - at least not to me.

If they dropped the device in the volcano, there would be no prime directive subplot, nor Spock disregarding the feelings of others subplot, which was the point of the entire sequence.

As for the in-universe reason, we arrived there mid-action, do we really want to sit there and watch all they did the entire night that forced them to proceed in this way? People have done much weirder things in the real world, that's not even puzzling. Why would experienced campers run out in the dead cold in their underwear and jump off trees to their deaths en masse? I have no idea, but it has happened. I am demanding an explanation for that before ruling the real world plausible.

Does it matter if Spock had to rest the device on a still hard surface outside of the lava after several unsuccessful attempts to drop it, or they discovered the automatic opener of the devices had malfunctioned because of a serial defect, or they were building the device right there and right then, and didn't expect the volcano to start erupting so soon and had to improvise, or Spock had just gone in Kirk-mode?

Why would he have unsuccessful attempts to drop it? Considering the difficulty he had in not falling into the magma himself, he could have just thrown the thing in.

It just seemed like such a lot of convoluted nonsense when it should have been a much more straightforward exercise (not that they should have been interfering anyway; are they going to prevent volcanic eruptions on every damn inhabited planet they run across?).

And here's another honest question because I really didn't get the point of it: Why did nuKirk have the scroll (I assume he stole it from the native temple)? If the idea was to shut off the volcano, why bother with temple raiding? Were they just trying to draw the natives away from the temple? If any of that was adequately explained, I managed to miss it all 3 times.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

And here's another honest question because I really didn't get the point of it: Why did nuKirk have the scroll (I assume he stole it from the native temple)? If the idea was to shut off the volcano, why bother with temple raiding? Were they just trying to draw the natives away from the temple? If any of that was adequately explained, I managed to miss it all 3 times.

Yes, it was.

 

[Timewalker]

And here's another honest question because I really didn't get the point of it: Why did nuKirk have the scroll (I assume he stole it from the native temple)? If the idea was to shut off the volcano, why bother with temple raiding? Were they just trying to draw the natives away from the temple? If any of that was adequately explained, I managed to miss it all 3 times.

Yes, it was.

How about explaining it, then, instead of being rude?

Look, you people seem to want me to like the movie, you'd prefer I stop posting negative things about it, so it would help achieve these things if you would help me understand the damn thing when I ask for explanations.

Why did nuKirk have the scroll with him? I would appreciate an in-story explanation, please.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

You already did mention the explanation yourself:

Were they just trying to draw the natives away from the temple?

Which is corroborated by the script:
Kirk: “Kirk to Shuttle One, the locals are out of the kill zone!”

In a world at that level of development, one small tribe can represent an entire culture that can shape the entire history of that world, so saving these few natives plays a role that's more than important. Similarly, having them witness the Enterprise and worship it would echo through the ages, which is what the final scene in the sequence was supposed to depict.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Probably, pre-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die.

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist alliterating there.)

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Probably, pre-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die.

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist alliterating there.)

So now Data and Spock are more sensitive than pre-Pen Pals Picard? I feel sorry for him, an android and a Vulcan lecturing him on the merits of emotion.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Picard's pretty prim and proper.

 

[Timewalker]

You already did mention the explanation yourself:

Were they just trying to draw the natives away from the temple?

Which is corroborated by the script:
Kirk: “Kirk to Shuttle One, the locals are out of the kill zone!”

In a world at that level of development, one small tribe can represent an entire culture that can shape the entire history of that world, so saving these few natives plays a role that's more than important. Similarly, having them witness the Enterprise and worship it would echo through the ages, which is what the final scene in the sequence was supposed to depict.

Ah, thank you. I missed that line.

Probably, pre-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die.

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist alliterating there.)

The only reason he agreed in that episode was because the little girl sent a message that was clearly meant for Data, and thus it was a direct request for help. If she hadn't sent the message (or if they hadn't received it), I think Picard would indeed have let them die.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Ah, thank you. I missed that line.

You seem to be missing a lot of stuff in the movie. For one who wants everything spelled out in dialog, you don't seem to pay much attention to it.

 

[Timewalker]

Ah, thank you. I missed that line.

You seem to be missing a lot of stuff in the movie. For one who wants everything spelled out in dialog, you don't seem to pay much attention to it.

Yep, it sure is nice to ask for help and have people throw rudeness back instead.

You have no idea what the circumstances were when I watched the movie. I was tired, and the volume control on my TV doesn't work reliably. Therefore, I missed some lines, or didn't hear them clearly. Or it's just barely possible that I was distracted by my cats or by whatever was going on in the building parking lot at the exact moment nuKirk uttered that line.

Do you hear every single line in a movie and understand it perfectly and have perfect recall days or weeks later when you're discussing it online?

 

[iguana_tonante]

When I bitch about something being stupid, illogical, silly, irrational, idiotic, and poorly done?

Yeah, I make pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. It seems more safe that way.

EtA: Also, after you spent months (years if we take ST09 into account) bitching about Abrams' movies and belittling people who liked them, calling your arguments "asking for help" is laughably disingenuous.

 

[SeerSGB]

When I bitch about something being stupid, illogical, silly, irrational, idiotic, and poorly done?

Yeah, I make pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. It seems more safe that way.

Damn. Can't seem to find the upvote button on the board. This will have to do

 

[Ovation]

Or maybe the scriptwriters just never thought about the potential problem.

And that would be because worrying about such a problem would have been a colossal waste of time (both for the characters in the story AND for the writers).

Or maybe the scriptwriters just never thought about it. There are scriptwriters who write SF who don't know anything about science, and one of the ideas proposed for TMP involved ancient Mayan gods (or Incan gods?). When somebody mused that the audience wouldn't go for that, the twit who proposed the idea said, "So what? They'll never know the difference."

So maybe someone can explain it to me, because in all the 3 times I saw this movie, I still don't get why nuSpock had to physically go into the volcano in the first place. Why didn't they just drop the bomb out of the shuttle and operate it remotely?

What does this have to do with the acidity of the water?

And missing a line once in a movie watching is common. Watching it three times and missing the exact same line three times is, well, unusual (at least if one is paying even passing attention to the film).

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Probably, pre-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die.

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist alliterating there.)

Actually even post-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die, remember Homeward.

 

[SeerSGB]

Probably, pre-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die.

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist alliterating there.)

Actually even post-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die, remember Homeward.

The lesson: Picard's a dick.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Probably, pre-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die.

(Apologies, I just couldn't resist alliterating there.)

Actually even post-Pen Pals Prime Picard would have just let the natives die, remember Homeward.

Good point.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Never understood Roddenberry's point about letting natives die in TNG. Sure, interference would radically change their culture, but the consequences have to be better tha total annihilation. I'm on board with Kirk's decision to save the natives, though lying about it to Starfleet was still pretty idiotic.

 

[Franklin]

Never understood Roddenberry's point about letting natives die in TNG. Sure, interference would radically change their culture, but the consequences have to be better tha total annihilation. I'm on board with Kirk's decision to save the natives, though lying about it to Starfleet was still pretty idiotic.

Agreed.

I don't want to get going again in another PD debate, but as others have pointed out over the months, it seems Orci and Kurtzman introduced TNG PD sensibilities into the movie, and that's part of the problem. In TOS the "noninterference directive" stressed not getting involved in the natural cultural development of a planet, not total noninterference (essentially complete avoidance).
The stricter PD mandating avoidance seems to contradict Pike's statement in ST09 that part of Starfleet's mission was to be a "humanitarian armada." Letting people die when you can help is not very humanitarian (or moral, or civilized, or even realistic).

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Never understood Roddenberry's point about letting natives die in TNG. Sure, interference would radically change their culture, but the consequences have to be better tha total annihilation. I'm on board with Kirk's decision to save the natives, though lying about it to Starfleet was still pretty idiotic.

It was a bad message to send, that's for sure.

The point, I think mentioned in one of the arguments in the ready room, was that a civilization surviving or not surviving would rewrite the future of the entire region of space, hence making a choice about it would interfere with it. That interpretation was struck down in the same argument (by Troi or Crusher) with the argument that the choice not to do anything is as fateful to the region. And so is establishing a base in there (something not forbidden by any sane regulation), or establishing a diplomatic relationship of someone who is warp-capable. Not to mention that the effects of it are as random as the effects of randomly passing by. In short, a huge load of donkey crap. I wonder how many pre-warp civilizations would dropping the red matter in the supernova save, sounds like a massive prime directive violation to me!

Oh, and I hate the contrived justification for that attitude ENT: Dear Doctor decided to pick on this matter. Cruel, merciless Darwinian process was painted as a fair judge of who lives and who dies, because it somehow aligned itself with temporary injustice. Terrible.

Oh, and there's one more reason – if you save one world, then a second, then a third, it might end up being your duty to save worlds, and/or leave you with the (always bad) choice of who to save. Perhaps Kirk did so often, and other captains did it so little, that the seeming unfairness forced them to expand the PD. Bad decision.

I don't want to get going again in another PD debate, but as others have pointed out over the months, it seems Orci and Kurtzman introduced TNG PD sensibilities into the movie, and that's part of the problem.

I don't think it did. Spock did not seem to think so, and I'd take Spock's word over Pike's. And I think Pike meant that it was not customary, not that it was not forbidden to save a world behind a veil. I can only hope the regulations they broke were about the danger to the first officer of the ship, and the show they gave the natives.