Dollhouse in Trouble?

[Forbin]

I don't know what's more frustrating, Fox executives' incessant interference, or Joss' exec-pussy-whipped wuss-like acceptance of everything they say. It was evident on the extras for Firefly when he talked about the orginal pilot and how Fox told him it didn't work. He said "They were riiiiight," like a little kid who just got yelled at. Yet that first pilot was effing brilliant!

Joss, get your balls back from your wife and stand up to the suits. YOU are the creative force. THEY are nothing but book keepers.

 

[Lindley]

^Can't say I interpreted the Firefly comment the same way. Joss was agreeing that showing the Battle of Serenity Valley rather than just talking about it was a better starting point for "Serenity".

It sounds like he's saying much the same here---that his original idea was a bit different, but that he's finding the direction imposed by the network no less interesting and possibly even a bit better in some ways.

While I hate network interference as much as anyone, it's not always bad---especially when it comes at this stage in the process rather than later, when things have already been hard-established.

Yay Jane Espenson! Oh, and "congratudolences" is totally my new favorite word.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Whedon gives an update on Dollhouse:
http://whedonesque.com/comments/17945

Whoah, a lot of blather and not much substance. It doesn't address the (to me) most crucial issue, that he's invested the story with something that would make the audience care about what happens next. That's the key problem with the premise, you have people who play "dolls" who adopt different identities each episode, so frakkin' what?

 

[Lindley]

Given that this is Joss Whedon, I think most of us just assumed he had somewhere cool to go with all this. I don't really get the need to see his vision before he tells it....

The more pressing question is whether that place is still accessible given the network changes.

 

[Forbin]

And whether they'll let him get there before they cancel it!

 

[Alaedhros]

Whedon gives an update on Dollhouse:
http://whedonesque.com/comments/17945

Whoah, a lot of blather and not much substance. It doesn't address the (to me) most crucial issue, that he's invested the story with something that would make the audience care about what happens next. That's the key problem with the premise, you have people who play "dolls" who adopt different identities each episode, so frakkin' what?

You've mentioned this before, but I'm still not sure I understand what you mean. In Heroes you have people with powers on adventures, so frakkin' what? In Firefly you have people taking jobs for cash, so frakkin' what? It seems that your problem with the premise can be re-phrased for most TV shows, which probably means that I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying. Can you explain your POV a bit more?

 

[stj]

Obviously Whedon thinks we'll care because Eliza Dushku is so sexy. And because her dialogue will be so cool. And because her scenes will be so sensational.

That trailer from a few months ago made it plain Fox was selling The Adventures of RoboHo. I get a vague impression that Whedon might be writing Girl Discovers Herself While She Has Really Cool Adventures Playing Dress Up. I'm dubious of the premise because I can't see why people who can program knowledge or personalities into the human mind would fart around running a whorehouse. Prostitutes have played fantasy roles for a long time as I understand it.

I think Temis is doubtful because by the premise the lead doesn't have a full personality. TV shows are about characters you identify with, but if the lead doesn't have a personality, how can you identify with it? It's a good question. I disagree that a good show is basically about the fulfilment of fantasies by a figure you identify with, but that kind of character driven TV is widely hailed as good writing these days.

 

[3D Master]

And the moment Eliza figures out her real identity she either leaves, or willingly goes back in to get her new found sense of self all but erased and next time around she has to re-remember everything.

Or in other words; the show's premise either turns into Dark Angel's premise after a few episodes (at most), or this is a girl that willingly has her soul erased over and over again to do... another job. The latter gets us a willing prostitute with no self-esteem whatsoever - not exactly something that appeals to a viewer.

Result: this show either turns into Dark Angel and then Alias, or it won't be watched.

The idea is great for a tv movie or a few, but an ongoing weekly series?

 

[Guy Gardener]

They did this with an Alpha flight comic a couple years back. Programming the shit out of those little Canadian fuckers between missions and rewriting the particulars of missions which went sour...

Effectively it's the Prisoner.

I would kill for another couple seasons of the Prisoner.

Then again, it's also My own worst enemy with Christian Slater which was clearly the Borne Supremecy, which jumped the que and reused this ancient premis in the modern arena first.

Alias had stuff going for it other than running. The fat funny side kick was neat. He should go far. Isn't it odd, how he's in a dreadfully successful show and Vartan's off the radar, meanwhile... Jennifer makes movie after movie that no one wants to watch. She should just stop. The old spud over on Brothers and sisters has done some decent work, but Sidney's dad is doing a job on Eli Stone that basically any one could do... Can't sing well either.

 

[DWF]

I would kill for another couple seasons of the Prisoner.

It only had one season with 17 eps. but it is coming back.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, that certainly depends on if you regard the prisoner to being a sequel to the spy drama "Dangerman"... Which is might have been? ...Although I did mean that I would kill for another series to be found/made in the 60s... Y'know, if I had to time machine.

I'm also being reminded of Cube Zero. The Third(?) of the Cube movies where we get to see the people running the cube, or at the very least the technician clerks monitoring the situation and discussing each gory death they're monitoring and cataloguing... Until we finally in the end discover that the technicians are part of the experiment also being monitored driving around in manufactured personalities!

But really. It's the Matrix.

I can imagine the scene where Eliza figures it out and almost escapes when a voice from a PA system says "take one more step and we'll execute your sister." And she capitulates but then the camera tracks back to the operator in charge of the dolls who is asked "Will we really kill her sister if she doesn't... ?" to wit the only answer conceivable is "Don't be rediculous, she doesn't have a sister."

Hells bells it's Blade Runner! Decker trying to ferrit out Rachel's fabricated memories while not realizing himself that in the direectors cut depending if you ignore harrison ford that he hijmself is an andriod because of course, to catch an android you need an andriod!

 

[ClayinCA]

Sidney's dad is doing a job on Eli Stone that basically any one could do... Can't sing well either.

Victor Garber was on Broadway in the original productions of Deathtrap, Sweeney Todd, and Noises Off and in the original off-Broadway cast of Assassins, as well as in the 1990s revival of Damn Yankees. In 2005 he played the role of Frederic in the LA Opera's production of Sondheim's A Little Night Music. He's also played the lead in a critically-acclaimed Encores presentation of Follies. He has been nominated for four Tony awards, three of them for musicals. All of which blows your assertion that he "can't sing well" pretty much out of the water.

 

[Forbin]

Whedon gives an update on Dollhouse:
http://whedonesque.com/comments/17945

Whoah, a lot of blather and not much substance. It doesn't address the (to me) most crucial issue, that he's invested the story with something that would make the audience care about what happens next. That's the key problem with the premise, you have people who play "dolls" who adopt different identities each episode, so frakkin' what?

You've mentioned this before, but I'm still not sure I understand what you mean. In Heroes you have people with powers on adventures, so frakkin' what? In Firefly you have people taking jobs for cash, so frakkin' what? It seems that your problem with the premise can be re-phrased for most TV shows, which probably means that I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying. Can you explain your POV a bit more?

I think she's wondering if it's going to possible for us to care about people who have no regular developing character. They're erased and reprogrammed every week, so we'll be seeing a whole new person, a stranger, every week. So there can't be any character growth, and we won't be able to get interested in anyone.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Not to go off topic...but...

Why is the concept of Firefly so "bizarre"? I've never understood that.

Because it's the old west. With spaceships.

On the surface, seems pretty silly, don't it?

Yeah, like the Navy with spaceships. You know, "Star Trek."

We've been inundated with Navy starships for generations. It is, nonetheless, a ridiculous concept.

 

[EnderAKH]

I think she's wondering if it's going to possible for us to care about people who have no regular developing character. They're erased and reprogrammed every week, so we'll be seeing a whole new person, a stranger, every week. So there can't be any character growth, and we won't be able to get interested in anyone.

But as I understand it:

a) Eliza Dushku's Echo will start retaining her memories from episode to episode. Part of the intrigue of the show, from what I understand, is that she has to keep that hidden from whoever runs the Dollhouse so that they do not figure out how to correct the glitch that keeps her aware.
b) They are not just programmed for sex. They can be programmed for sex, crimes, espionage, surveillance, pretty much any task someone would need an untraceable operative for. There programming is not just personalities, but also skills and muscle memory.​

​

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sidney's dad is doing a job on Eli Stone that basically any one could do... Can't sing well either.

Victor Garber was on Broadway in the original productions of Deathtrap, Sweeney Todd, and Noises Off and in the original off-Broadway cast of Assassins, as well as in the 1990s revival of Damn Yankees. In 2005 he played the role of Frederic in the LA Opera's production of Sondheim's A Little Night Music. He's also played the lead in a critically-acclaimed Encores presentation of Follies. He has been nominated for four Tony awards, three of them for musicals. All of which blows your assertion that he "can't sing well" pretty much out of the water.

I saw him as Daddy Warbucks in Annie. Someone rented the wrong Annie to entertain the children on a rainy Sunday. just not good. Dudes voice is weak. It sounds like he's going through puberty when he reaches for the high notes or tries to hold anything much...

Personal opinion?

Katie Holmes was SURPRISINGLY good last week, if not actually good.

Hmm?

I wonder if Joe 90 continued for a couple more seasons if he would have been programmed for sex by his father to fight the communists and other baddies?

John Larroquet "teaching" Chuck how to fuck like a spy a couple weeks back was hilarious.

 

[3D Master]

I think she's wondering if it's going to possible for us to care about people who have no regular developing character. They're erased and reprogrammed every week, so we'll be seeing a whole new person, a stranger, every week. So there can't be any character growth, and we won't be able to get interested in anyone.

But as I understand it:

a) Eliza Dushku's Echo will start retaining her memories from episode to episode. Part of the intrigue of the show, from what I understand, is that she has to keep that hidden from whoever runs the Dollhouse so that they do not figure out how to correct the glitch that keeps her aware.
b) They are not just programmed for sex. They can be programmed for sex, crimes, espionage, surveillance, pretty much any task someone would need an untraceable operative for. There programming is not just personalities, but also skills and muscle memory.​

​

Oh, so she's a willing prostitute, thief, murderer, assassin, then? Wow, interesting... except not.

The point is, the moment she's fully aware, she needs to escape, and it turns into Dark Angel. Maybe she'd go to the cops, and get the people who do this arrested; show over, or... all those skills, hmm... CIA? Look, it's Alias!

The show is either totally uninteresting without any likeable and strong characters, or the premise is over from just about the get-go.

 

[amdmiami]

I think she's wondering if it's going to possible for us to care about people who have no regular developing character. They're erased and reprogrammed every week, so we'll be seeing a whole new person, a stranger, every week. So there can't be any character growth, and we won't be able to get interested in anyone.

But as I understand it:

a) Eliza Dushku's Echo will start retaining her memories from episode to episode. Part of the intrigue of the show, from what I understand, is that she has to keep that hidden from whoever runs the Dollhouse so that they do not figure out how to correct the glitch that keeps her aware.

b) They are not just programmed for sex. They can be programmed for sex, crimes, espionage, surveillance, pretty much any task someone would need an untraceable operative for. There programming is not just personalities, but also skills and muscle memory.​

Oh, so she's a willing prostitute, thief, murderer, assassin, then? Wow, interesting... except not.

The point is, the moment she's fully aware, she needs to escape, and it turns into Dark Angel. Maybe she'd go to the cops, and get the people who do this arrested; show over, or... all those skills, hmm... CIA? Look, it's Alias!

The show is either totally uninteresting without any likeable and strong characters, or the premise is over from just about the get-go.

If we judged every show like that, would we ever want to watch TV. I remember before the BSG miniseries came out how everyone has hating on it (not here) and everyone was expecting it to be worse and more cheesier than the OS. However, now everyone has changed their minds quite some bit. How about we watch the first season Dollhouse when it come out and THEN judge it.

 

[3D Master]

If we judged every show like that, would we ever want to watch TV. I remember before the BSG miniseries came out how everyone has hating on it (not here) and everyone was expecting it to be worse and more cheesier than the OS. However, now everyone has changed their minds quite some bit. How about we watch the first season Dollhouse when it come out and THEN judge it.

Uh, nBSG IS worse than the original, it's a 1,000 times worse than the original. And I'm not watching it. Getting through the pilot was 2 hours wasted. Simply put; throughout most of it, I spent my time rooting for the Cylons to finally wipe the bastards out. There is not a single likeable character in the whole bunch, and from the things I've read about, I know it's only gotten worse. One big steaming pile of shit, quite frankly.

The original by contrast, is GOOD.

There isn't enough time in the world to waste on watching stuff that is bad. So no, there is no point in watching an entire season.

In fact, this is Whedon, so I won't be watching even a second.

 

[Guy Gardener]

i remember seeing someone ripping into sketches of the deckhand uniforms thinking that they were the new flight suits before it all started.... Remember that clusterfuck "The Island"?

"The Island vs Universal Soldier."

With shades of blank slate and total recall as she finds clues to help her refigure out what's going on every time they super erase her memory when she drops the ball and they figure out she's playing them.

Are they going to be condemned Prisoners like in Le femm Nikita or Clones/androids/Replicants man-made property that if thye escape, then they are quickly discovered to be abominations not worthy of god given freedom?