Hey a question about DS9 and the about changelings..

[Grendelsbayne]

Well, once Odo did demonstrate the illusion of drinking coffee, so as to fit into a restaurant setting, so it suggests he cannot digest food.

Not really. We know for a fact that he could at least appear to eat actual food - since changelings can hold in blood, they can also hold in food and release it later. Since he doesn't do that, either, one could just as easily deduce that he doesn't want to bother with it all.

Another thing I'd suggest is there is probably a clear difference physiologically between Odo's normal form and a skilled changeling impersonating a human (or klingon, vulcan, whatever). Odo's form may not be really based on anything - it could just be a form he found useful for interacting with humanoids. So if that form lacks the capability to digest things, it may simply be because Odo can't be bothered to form a digestive system. After all - he isn't trying to hide his nature from medical scans.

 

[Shada Dukal]

When Odo got stuck in the turbolift with Lwaxana Troi, she was capable of holding him in her skirt so he did not appear to be more than 5 kg at the most. Probably even less.

I don’t think that Odo or any other changeling can disperse their density, where does the remaining density go. We saw a changeling that covered the promenade with mist. But this mist must equal the input mass. No changeling appeared hollow so they must proliferate the required mass or reduce it to match what they imitate. So I guess suspension of disbelief is the only way.

If we assume that a small part of a changeling loses its ability to morph when separated from the whole it means that a changeling can’t develop thinking, self-awareness and intelligence until reaching a certain critical mass. In fact, Dr. Mora was pretty concerned whether the infant changeling they were trying to save would increase its mass.

Yes, this is the only explanation I have come across about the changelings’ way out to circumvent the blood samples. However, this means that all excretory functions are beyond them. They fool the scanners in terms of life sign readings typical of a given species but still they don’t duplicate the internal physiology fully. So I guess the changes were external only. I don’t think that a changeling would duplicate endocrine gland function or digestive tract enzymes because they were not likely to be checked. What is more, the sample would return to its goo state.

I have always attributed blinking and breathing to assumed behavior typical of the species impersonated. Still, Odo spent in humanoid form about 10 years on DS9. I don’t think that he has spent that much time on imitating a Tarkalean hawk, so I guess the hawk would puzzle each ornithologist on close inspection.

 

[Timo]

We get a hint about Odo's "natural mass" in the events of "Vortex", where he first imitates a glass that is light enough for Rom to effortlessly carry around with a single arm, but then gets knocked out by a falling rock and has to be dragged around like a normal human being. We might argue that Odo "naturally" weighs as much as a humanoid of that size, that is, an ugly bag of mostly water and hence probably some 70-90 kg (or a bit more, as the lowlife Croden remarks he is "heavier than he looks"). He just masks some of that mass/weight when conscious.

Then again, odds are that Odo was just pretending to be knocked out by that rock, to see what Croden would do. It doesn't appear as if concussion really would be something a Founder (even an ignorant child) would have to fear...

Masking of mass sounds like something we should expect of a Founder in any case. When a Founder becomes a drinking glass, how come it is not stuck being a drinking glass? Drinking glasses, after all, do not have any shapeshifting abilities other than shattering or the occasional melting! Clearly, Odo's "Changelingness" is able to "hide" somewhere, safely out of reach of all Federation instrumentation. Wherever it hides, then, much of Odo's mass could also hide. (Alternately, we could see it as Odo existing outside our realm of comprehension and merely projecting illusions of specific size, shape and mass into this realm - if nothing else, then at least that amber-glowing "anchor" that is always there when nothing else is.)

The interesting question then becomes, if Odo can go "elsewhere" when needed, can he take something with him? We have sometimes seen him operate his chest communicator right after emerging from some shape that did not contain that device and could not have contained it (say, those tiny shards of transparent glass in "Vortex"). Did the commbadge go "elsewhere"? An adult Founder no doubt could imitate a functional commbadge after a bit of practice, but Odo supposedly would have major difficulty doing so...

As for the issue of tiny droplets of Changeling being unable to hold any shape or assume one... Well, that's a known Odo shortcoming. But no other Changeling has ever demonstrated this shortcoming: when the one pretending to be first Krajensky and then Bashir in "The Adversary" allowed a droplet to be seen reverting, this was a mere ploy. Nor has any adult Changeling demonstrated the need to take a nap in a bucket every 16 or 18 hours - and one of them maintained a single shape for months in the final season of DS9 where Odo was in agony after mere hours in "The Die is Cast". So we have good reason to think that most and perhaps all the Changeling shortcomings known to Odo are in fact nothing but childhood "teething troubles", and even then perhaps only affecting particularly retarded kids who grow in a barrel in the middle of a forest.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

Am I a creationist? No, we haven't had them in Britain since....well since we shipped them off to America.

If only that were true. Unfortunately:
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2009/feb/01/evolution-darwin-survey-creationism

Half of British adults do not believe in evolution, with at least 22% preferring the theories of creationism or intelligent design to explain how the world came about, according to a survey.

The poll found that 25% of Britons believe Charles Darwin's theory of evolution is "definitely true", with another quarter saying it is "probably true". Half of the 2,060 people questioned were either strongly opposed to the theory or confused about it.

The Rescuing Darwin survey, published to coincide with the 200th anniversary of Darwin's birth and the 150th anniversary of the publication of On the Origin of *Species, found that around 10% of people chose young Earth creationism – the belief that God created the world some time in the last 10,000 years – over evolution.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

When Odo got stuck in the turbolift with Lwaxana Troi, she was capable of holding him in her skirt so he did not appear to be more than 5 kg at the most. Probably even less.

I don’t think that Odo or any other changeling can disperse their density, where does the remaining density go. We saw a changeling that covered the promenade with mist. But this mist must equal the input mass. No changeling appeared hollow so they must proliferate the required mass or reduce it to match what they imitate. So I guess suspension of disbelief is the only way.

If we assume that a small part of a changeling loses its ability to morph when separated from the whole it means that a changeling can’t develop thinking, self-awareness and intelligence until reaching a certain critical mass. In fact, Dr. Mora was pretty concerned whether the infant changeling they were trying to save would increase its mass.

Yes, this is the only explanation I have come across about the changelings’ way out to circumvent the blood samples. However, this means that all excretory functions are beyond them. They fool the scanners in terms of life sign readings typical of a given species but still they don’t duplicate the internal physiology fully. So I guess the changes were external only. I don’t think that a changeling would duplicate endocrine gland function or digestive tract enzymes because they were not likely to be checked. What is more, the sample would return to its goo state.

I have always attributed blinking and breathing to assumed behavior typical of the species impersonated. Still, Odo spent in humanoid form about 10 years on DS9. I don’t think that he has spent that much time on imitating a Tarkalean hawk, so I guess the hawk would puzzle each ornithologist on close inspection.

I'm not convinced though. It should take far, far more than just external transformations to fool even the most rudimentary Federation scan. A simple tricorder exposed the Klingon spy in "Trouble with Tribbles", despite him having had extensive physical surgery to make him appear perfectly human.

Starship scanners routinely differentiate between different species, even when their external physiology appear almost identical.

Either a changeling's transformation is 100% internal and external, or they know exactly what parameters (say, body heat, bone density, skeletal structure, bioelectric signals, etc) the scans are based on and are able to mimic the proper readings perfectly, which - to me - seems far more complicated and less probable.

But the whole point about the blood tests is not that they can't produce blood - they obviously can produce blood. Every time a blood test is shown it is clearly blood that comes out. It's only after it is fully separated from the changeling that it reverts to goo - which to me says they clearly are capable of reproducing internal body functions, they simply aren't capable of maintaining the structure once they lose contact with the goo. Obviously, as changelings, they will never actually need those internal processes to function. But there's no reason why the processes couldn't be functional anyway - they're simply unused.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

identical.

Either a changeling's transformation is 100% internal and external, or they know exactly what parameters (say, body heat, bone density, skeletal structure, bioelectric signals, etc) the scans are based on and are able to mimic the proper readings perfectly, which - to me - seems far more complicated and less probable.

I'm not sure it would be that complicated. Certainly, it was in the realm of possibility to model the results of a bioscan, as Soong achieved that Juliana Trainer. If his physical transformation is only skin deep, the rest of his substance could be dedicated to putting out false life signs. The ability could be partly innate, partly learned. Perhaps it is an ability that is taxing, so it is only summoned when necessary.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

identical.

Either a changeling's transformation is 100% internal and external, or they know exactly what parameters (say, body heat, bone density, skeletal structure, bioelectric signals, etc) the scans are based on and are able to mimic the proper readings perfectly, which - to me - seems far more complicated and less probable.

I'm not sure it would be that complicated. Certainly, it was in the realm of possibility to model the results of a bioscan, as Soong achieved that Juliana Trainer. If his physical transformation is only skin deep, the rest of his substance could be dedicated to putting out false life signs. The ability could be partly innate, partly learned. Perhaps it is an ability that is taxing, so it is only summoned when necessary.

It's an extra ability that should be unnecessary. We already know they can perfectly imitate skin or tongues, etc, so there's no reason to assume they can't imitate hearts or livers and by simply using that skill they already have, they would produce the same life signs without needing a completely different skill.

 

[Shada Dukal]

Yes, they can imitate each body fluid, including blood, the problem is that when it leaves the whole, the mimicry will be revealed.

I guess they are capable of duplicating the internal organs – the position of the heart and lungs in the chest, liver and intestines in the abdominal cavity, kidneys and ducts. The heart will pump, the veins and arteries will seem to be full of blood, the lungs will dilate and contract so the gaseous exchange will be typical, the bowel movements will be preserved, the body temperature and bone structure will be within the parameters for the impersonated species. This is what the scanning device will register.

The organs will create the impression of being operational and real enough to pass the scan but in fact, they won’t be functioning, the changelings won’t need them in order to stay alive, they will be just part of their decoy. I am not sure that they will continue maintaining the internal mimicry when the scan is over because it requires a lot of coordination and concentration.

 

[Timo]

Yes, they can imitate each body fluid, including blood, the problem is that when it leaves the whole, the mimicry will be revealed.

But it isn't. "Martok" was a Changeling when he spilled his blood in "Way of the Warrior", and the mimicry was not revealed: the blood stayed blood.

In contrast, when blood did revert to goo, it was a deliberate feint to make non-Changelings look like Changelings, both in "The Adversary" and "Paradise Lost".

So this supposed limitation probably does not exist at all: it is just a clever ploy invented by the Changelings, based on their knowledge that young Odo lives under the misunderstanding that separated bits revert to goo. Thus, the Changelings themselves introduce this completely ineffective Changeling test in "Way of the Warrior" in order to avoid detection.

I am not sure that they will continue maintaining the internal mimicry when the scan is over because it requires a lot of coordination and concentration.

I doubt it really is a problem for them. Scanning won't be "over", like, ever for Changelings mimicking the leaders of paranoid species such as Romulans or Cardassians. Yet we know that such mimicry is successful...

We can choose to believe in 100% perfect imitation, or we can choose to believe in Changelings knowing exactly how to "jam" senses and scanners. IMHO, the former is easier to believe, as it requires no knowledge of the type of scanners and senses being applied on the Changeling.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tosk]

Yes, they can imitate each body fluid, including blood, the problem is that when it leaves the whole, the mimicry will be revealed.

But it isn't. "Martok" was a Changeling when he spilled his blood in "Way of the Warrior", and the mimicry was not revealed: the blood stayed blood.

We don't know if it was Goo or actually blood though. For all we know, every Changeling on a mission used the approach as described by Joseph Sisko. I'm not saying that's what "Martok" did, just that we don't know.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Yes, they can imitate each body fluid, including blood, the problem is that when it leaves the whole, the mimicry will be revealed.

But it isn't. "Martok" was a Changeling when he spilled his blood in "Way of the Warrior", and the mimicry was not revealed: the blood stayed blood.

We don't know if it was Goo or actually blood though. For all we know, every Changeling on a mission used the approach as described by Joseph Sisko. I'm not saying that's what "Martok" did, just that we don't know.

It's also worth noting that it was at Martok's insistence, and he could well have rehearsed the whole illusion. (Of course, backtracking is needed for future development.)

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

What about Marta from TUC?

Was she a changeling too or a different species?

 

[Shada Dukal]

Indeed, Joseph Sisko’s explanation that was discussed and explained in depth earlier on this thread is the only one that was mentioned in the show.

I don’t think that changelings are willing to part with their goo even if it could retain its assumed form, it is their body after all. We saw how reluctant Odo and the Female Changeling were when asked for samples.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Yes, they can imitate each body fluid, including blood, the problem is that when it leaves the whole, the mimicry will be revealed.

I guess they are capable of duplicating the internal organs – the position of the heart and lungs in the chest, liver and intestines in the abdominal cavity, kidneys and ducts. The heart will pump, the veins and arteries will seem to be full of blood, the lungs will dilate and contract so the gaseous exchange will be typical, the bowel movements will be preserved, the body temperature and bone structure will be within the parameters for the impersonated species. This is what the scanning device will register.

The organs will create the impression of being operational and real enough to pass the scan but in fact, they won’t be functioning, the changelings won’t need them in order to stay alive, they will be just part of their decoy. I am not sure that they will continue maintaining the internal mimicry when the scan is over because it requires a lot of coordination and concentration.

I agree with most of this - except that I've never seen any reason to suspect that maintaining a complicated form is any more effort for a changeling than maintaining a relatively simple one.

Even more importantly, Changeling impersonators cannot ever let their guard down. They can't just assume that nobody's scanning them just because they don't see anyone doing so. They wouldn't break their illusion in any way except when they absolutely had to.

We can choose to believe in 100% perfect imitation, or we can choose to believe in Changelings knowing exactly how to "jam" senses and scanners. IMHO, the former is easier to believe, as it requires no knowledge of the type of scanners and senses being applied on the Changeling.

Timo Saloniemi

Exactly.

What about Marta from TUC?

Was she a changeling too or a different species?

Clearly a different species. Her method for shapeshifting looked nothing alike, there was no goo anywhere. She also called herself a 'Chameloid', which made it sound like she knew exactly where she came from and what she was (ergo, not one of the baby changelings sent out into the universe).

Plus, she was legitimately an inmate on a klingon prison planet. There's no way Klingons could keep a founder prisoner, especially not in such open conditions as Rura Penthe, so Marta must have been far more limited in what she could do than a founder. My guess is she could probably only imitate living beings (maybe even only humanoids), there might very well be some size limits on her, and she probably wasn't able to fool scanners. That's mainly conjecture, of course.

 

[Shada Dukal]

100% perfect imitation all the time does not seem to be plausible because no living creature, no matter how different from organic humanoids they might be, can retain an unnatural state without overstraining too much. Odo needed to rest quite often, every 16 hours, because he was not a particularly experienced changeling. Even the most adept changelings would feel tired at times so if they conserved their energy and abstained from unnecessary transformations, they would be able to keep the mimicry for longer periods. If we apply the law of economy, no changeling would invest more efforts than necessary.


What is more, once the infiltrated changeling gets used to the new environment, they will know very well the locations of the scanning devices and the scanning routines and they will manage to counter them.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

100% perfect imitation all the time does not seem to be plausible because no living creature, no matter how different from organic humanoids they might be, can retain an unnatural state without overstraining too much. Odo needed to rest quite often, every 16 hours, because he was not a particularly experienced changeling. Even the most adept changelings would feel tired at times so if they conserved their energy and abstained from unnecessary transformations, they would be able to keep the mimicry for longer periods. If we apply the law of economy, no changeling would invest more efforts than necessary.


What is more, once the infiltrated changeling gets used to the new environment, they will know very well the locations of the scanning devices and the scanning routines and they will manage to counter them.

What is an 'unnatural state' for a changeling?

Regardless, any changeling who wanted to minimize the possibility of getting caught would maximize the accuracy of their imitation in all public situations and leave resting for those times and places where they can be most certain that no one is looking.

On the subject of whether or not a changeling keeps its mass constant, incidentally, I'm just rewatching "Broken Link" and in the process of diagnosing what's wrong with Odo, Dr. Bashir flat out confirms that both Odo's mass and his density change during the shapeshifting process.

 

[Timo]

I don’t think that changelings are willing to part with their goo even if it could retain its assumed form, it is their body after all.

They are quite willing to part with their "infants", though.

We don't know whether Changelings actually exist as individuals at all. Might be the Link is one great mass that buds off smaller masses as needed, these on occasion possessing the capacity for independent opinion, on occasion not. The "infants" only seem to develop that capacity late in their "lives", FWIW.

There's a psychological difference between volunteering a sample for examination and expending a bit of one's mass in the form of, say, a crossbow bolt through the enemy heart... Because of this difference, we can't readily tell whether Changeling mass really is precious to them, or something they can replenish at will (or even something that needs no replenishment but is automatically available in infinite supply, perhaps).

I'm just rewatching "Broken Link" and in the process of diagnosing what's wrong with Odo, Dr. Bashir flat out confirms that both Odo's mass and his density change during the shapeshifting process.

It is an interesting contrast: on one hand, the Changeling species possesses this amazing ability to defy conventional laws of physics, while on the other, Odo is said to have DNA ("A Man Alone")! Is the good Constable unconsciously practicing this intricate mimicry, or are both the attributes a natural and basic element of Changelingness?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shada Dukal]

We don’t know how changelings procreate but whatever the details are, the act of voluntary procreation can’t be compared to losing part of themselves to solids for analysis or under combat circumstances. Still, the crossbow bolt is a great idea, once the arrow leaves the changeling, the enemy will be splashed with jelly, just like in a school canteen when children throw jelly at each other.

Indeed, they will maximize the accuracy of imitation but only when necessary. When among solids in public venues, they will try harder when alone – not that much. By the way, Starfleet scanners in 2371 could not detect changelings, in “Adversary” episode they found the changeling by scanning for tetryon particles. So once they infiltrate a place, they can move around quite safely.

Changelings can exist as individuals pretty well, they have a sense of personality and idiosyncrasy. We saw three different changelings – Odo, Laas and the Female Changeling. Not all Changelings were Founders so they obviously have a hierarchy and a social structure. The Great Link is simply their society. They join it to exchange information, to rest and to communicate. In this sense, being a gelatinous amorphous substance is their natural state. They don’t have to make an effort to metamorph and the individual consciousness is in touch with the collective mind. They need to assume a form only when they leave the Link.

It is only normal for the mass and density to change during the shapeshifting process, after all shapeshifting is to copy exactly the mass and density of a particular creature or object. Still, once the process is over no one knows what happens to the excess mass and density or how they are generated if they don’t suffice. Robert Wolfe, cited in Memory Alpha, hypothesizes that “Changelings use some sort of subspace 'pocket' to store additional mass during a morph."

 

[Ithekro]

Laas was able to mimic a flying space creature and thus fly in space.

If the Martok changling was skilled enough he might have been able to keep his "blood" as blood and avoided suspicion. Gathering his "blood" up later as they cleaned up.

 

[Timo]

...Indeed, the blood might have gathered crucial intelligence while sitting there atop that conference table!

The Great Link is simply their society.

Possibly. Or then not. We don't really know of individuals existing within the Link - all we know is that the Link can be internally divided on a course of action. And that can happen to a single mind on occasion, too!

Once separated from the great mass of the Link, Changelings can be roughly humanoid-sized individuals. We've also seen other types, though: those tiny "infants", and possibly also the key thing from "Vortex" (Odo seemed pretty convinced that its shapeshifting nature was close to his own). The simplest possible model of gelatinous individuals who can occasionally dive into the same pool is but one of the possibilities here; it is perhaps telling that only children such as Odo and Laas have ever had names, while grown-ups appear to make do without those...

Timo Saloniemi