you know how the 1701-A had three captains (kirk, spock, scotty)...

[J.T.B.]

Re: you know how the 1701-A had three captains (kirk, spock, scotty)..

Perhaps, but wasn't Uhura in gold as well in The Corbamite Maneuver? I think it could then imply that anyone on the senior crew would then be considered command-level officers(?). But then that would simply be taking a costuming error/fix/continuity error and turning it into something beyond what it initially was.

It doesn't have anything to do with rank in TOS. "Command" is just the name of the division that handles the ship's navigation and weapons functions. It has personnel across all levels, including relatively low-ranking weapons crew. That's what I was saying above: Using the name "command" for the whole division is confusing because it really doesn't have anything to do with the chain of command. Red-shirts like Scotty and DeSalle are pretty high up the chain, while gold-shirts like Angela Martine would be way, way down the chain.

In TMP the old "command" division seems to have been split into command (white) and operations (yellow), but there are still low-ranking personnel wearing white distinctions. When they switch to the maroon uniforms white seems to correlate more with grade, but not always as has been mentioned above.

--Justin

 

[Timo]

Re: you know how the 1701-A had three captains (kirk, spock, scotty)..

What our heroes wore in that court session (or whatever occasion it was - not necessarily a proper trial at all) might have been for them to choose. They were rogues, after all: Kirk might have chosen to don a peg leg and a black scarf, and Uhura could have mooned the crowd. Instead, they chose to make a statement by wearing Starfleet uniforms, but nobody could force Scotty to wear what he had been using aboard the Excelsior instead of what he had worn when serving under Kirk.

Scotty in ST3 is the only one to depart Earth in anything resembling a uniform. He has the Captain pin on throughout the adventure. In ST4, he wears what's probably supposed to be the same jacket (although his vest and shirt have changed - good for him!), but the pin has already changed to Commander during the exile on Vulcan. He seems to have made the choice to change the pin there, probably as a statement. But when he got his job back in the trial, he again started to follow SF regulations and wear the pin he was officially supposed to.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Merky]

Re: you know how the 1701-A had three captains (kirk, spock, scotty)..

I'm looking at this from a US Navy standpoint in which you have the enlisted officers and then you have the commissioned officers (From my experience in ROTC). Enlisted never got the fancy dress blues like commissioned in the program (njrotc). So when I say "command", I'm automatically going to think " well anyone from this rank on up will automatically be considered a command-track officer "... I'm not saying it's that black and white. I'm saying that it is your "rank" that determines if you wear the white color not shirt/strap itself.

Because if we were going to go that route, Saavik should not be in command white in STIII and STIV. She isn't a commanding officer "but" she is an officer on the command track (established in STII by her taking the Kobayashi Maru and assuming command during the educational flight). So technically there is a "division" of command and there are officers in Starfleet who's main focus is to obtain "command" and did not necessarily train for a specific operational skill.

So breaking it down, you have three situations for wearing the white shirt:

1) Command on a ship - Either you're the CO/XO
2) Command-track officer - An officer who went to Starfleet with the sole intentions of eventually becoming CO/XO of a ship
3) Command by rank - An officer who's obtained a certain rank higher than a Commander but still has the choice to wear his/her division colors

Get what I'm saying? There is a "command" division in some loose way. You've never seen anyone under the rank of Captain or a command track officer in white. In my head this all makes sense, maybe I'm not explaining it right.

 

[BillJ]

Re: you know how the 1701-A had three captains (kirk, spock, scotty)..

I'm looking at this from a US Navy standpoint in which you have the enlisted officers and then you have the commissioned officers (From my experience in ROTC). Enlisted never got the fancy dress blues like commissioned in the program (njrotc). So when I say "command", I'm automatically going to think " well anyone from this rank on up will automatically be considered a command-track officer "... I'm not saying it's that black and white. I'm saying that it is your "rank" that determines if you wear the white color not shirt itself.

Because if we were going to go that route, Saavik should not be in command white in STIII and STIV. She isn't a commanding officer "but" she is an officer on the command track (established in STII by her taking the Kobayashi Maru and assuming command during the educational flight). So technically there is a "division" of command and there are officers in Starfleet who's main focus is to obtain "command" and did not necessarily train for a specific operational skill.

So breaking it down, you have three situations for wearing the white shirt:

1) Command on a ship - Either you're the CO/XO
2) Command-track officer - An officer who went to Starfleet with the sole intentions of eventually becoming CO/XO of a ship
3) Command by rank - An officer who's obtained a certain rank higher than a Commander but still has the choice to wear his/her division colors

Get what I'm saying? There is a "command" division in some loose way. You've never seen anyone under the rank of Captain or a command track officer in white. In my head this all makes sense, maybe I'm not explaining it right.

I'm pretty sure we're all just over thinking this one.

So we have two officers of equal rank who serve as first and second officers. One wears command white (first officer) and one wears division colors (second officer).

A) Starfleet didn't officially recognize the position of first officer until sometime after the first five year mission. Once the position was officially recognized it required all officers holding the post to wear command colors.

B) Spock, for whatever reason, had a change of heart about wearing a science division uniform when he accepted reassignment to the Enterprise.

C) Spock, when reassigned to the Enterprise no longer held the title of Science Officer. By standing order, Spock would man the science station when on the bridge (he still needs a work station) and not in command of the Enterprise.

Pick and choose whatever makes you happy.

 

[Merky]

Re: you know how the 1701-A had three captains (kirk, spock, scotty)..

I'm looking at this from a US Navy standpoint in which you have the enlisted officers and then you have the commissioned officers (From my experience in ROTC). Enlisted never got the fancy dress blues like commissioned in the program (njrotc). So when I say "command", I'm automatically going to think " well anyone from this rank on up will automatically be considered a command-track officer "... I'm not saying it's that black and white. I'm saying that it is your "rank" that determines if you wear the white color not shirt itself.

Because if we were going to go that route, Saavik should not be in command white in STIII and STIV. She isn't a commanding officer "but" she is an officer on the command track (established in STII by her taking the Kobayashi Maru and assuming command during the educational flight). So technically there is a "division" of command and there are officers in Starfleet who's main focus is to obtain "command" and did not necessarily train for a specific operational skill.

So breaking it down, you have three situations for wearing the white shirt:

1) Command on a ship - Either you're the CO/XO
2) Command-track officer - An officer who went to Starfleet with the sole intentions of eventually becoming CO/XO of a ship
3) Command by rank - An officer who's obtained a certain rank higher than a Commander but still has the choice to wear his/her division colors

Get what I'm saying? There is a "command" division in some loose way. You've never seen anyone under the rank of Captain or a command track officer in white. In my head this all makes sense, maybe I'm not explaining it right.

I'm pretty sure we're all just over thinking this one.

I think this is something we all can agree on

 

[Vance]

Re: you know how the 1701-A had three captains (kirk, spock, scotty)..

Hmmm. I remember him being promoted to "Captain" of Engineering in TSFS but I thought that was just a term to describe him heading the Engineering department of Excelsior.

People tend to forget that 'captain' is both a rank and a position. You can have an ensign, for instance, be 'captain of security' if he's in charge of the department and only has crewmen below him.