Worf's Assumptions In Conundrum

[Mojochi]

Wouldn't... eventually... they (or at least Worf himself) consider the possibility that even though he is "Decorated as well" That his decoration being so unique, might in fact be just that, a decoration, like a citation, or other emblem of recognition. However, if you plan to infer rank, then you consider the decorations that everyone is wearing, like Riker did, where Worf literally has only one more than the least amount someone could have?

Overlooking some of the plot holes in the episode, I really do like the nuanced character dynamics they were able to explore in this situation, like Riker & Ro dropping rank to work together, & Picard becoming more conciliatory for the overall benefit. Either the Worf part was a little too forced, or we have to somewhat assume he's an extremely arrogant person, much more than I'd ever really considered him otherwise

 

[Paradise City]

Worf is an assertive guy and he can't be otherwise. Whilst everyone else is tryin' to figure out what's going on, Worf acts and takes command. I liked the writers decided to do that. I think it's a plausible thing for him to do in those circumstances.

 

[Jayson1]

What I never understood is that you would think that, were they were standing would answer a few questions. Picard was literally sitting in the captain's chair and Worf was stationed at the tatical. Shouldn't that answer a few questions? Also doesn't anyone have anything written on paper that could fill them on missing info? Maybe even some photo's were for some reason MacDuff never seems to be in any of them.

Jason

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Also doesn't anyone have anything written on paper that could fill them on missing info? Maybe even some photo's were for some reason MacDuff never seems to be in any of them.

Paper? Photos? How quaint.

 

[Mojochi]

What I never understood is that you would think that, were they were standing would answer a few questions. Picard was literally sitting in the captain's chair and Worf was stationed at the tatical. Shouldn't that answer a few questions?

Ro does that. She just looks around & says to herself "Oh hey... I guess I'm the pilot". You'd think Worf, who is not stupid or crazy at all, would follow suit by thinking "Hey, this is the weapons area. Maybe I'm the weapons guy". Beverly figures it out pretty quick that she's a doctor. Riker starts looking at pips, to figure the rest out. Even Data makes the assumption that where he is must be what he is, but not Worf.

Worf isn't really that dumb imho. He should know better, & I've never considered his assertiveness or Klingon aggressiveness to be something that he lets interfere with being sensible. He certainly doesn't suffer that problem AS a Klingon in the civil war during Redemption. He's pretty calculated actually, & even reserved for a Klingon.

However, one explanation is that this episode highlights character traits that we don't often see in our regulars. Ro is far more vulnerable than we've ever seen her. She takes her usual edge off, & just assumes these people are her friends. She lets her guard down with Riker, & he too drops ranks & deals with her on equal footing. He's not so dogmatic or officious. Picard is downright conciliatory. Goes straight into mediating, and teamwork, not nearly as arrogant or stuffy as he might otherwise appear. Worf, on the other hand is literally moving into the captain's ready room, & sitting in the center chair, barking orders instead of actively contributing.

He completely disregards the suggestion that they table the idea of who's in charge. All I'm saying is that the way it plays, in the context of seeing other personality sides to our characters, is that Worf is mighty presumptuous & somewhat arrogant. It seems to me at least, to be more than assertive or aggressive, & it was a pretty main focal point of the opening act(s). Nobody holds it against him, but he does, once he realizes. Basically, If we're reading our characters in new ways, this is kind of a new way to see him. I don't think we should condemn him for it. I just like to consider what something like this says about him. He gets a little carried away with himself here

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Worf, as Geordi explained it to Data, filled in the gaps with his personality.

Conundrum's a great episode but has some logical problems you just have to ignore not the least of which is Troi beating Data at chess. Data thought he was malfunctioning because he couldn't beat a grandmaster at Strategema, imagine how he should feel about losing a far simpler game to an amateur.

Maybe he threw the game because it's a tactic he learned to make humans like him more.

 

[Nebusj]

What I never understood is that you would think that, were they were standing would answer a few questions. Picard was literally sitting in the captain's chair and Worf was stationed at the tatical. Shouldn't that answer a few questions?

How do they know what the Captain's Chair is? Is it labelled as such?

Supposing that the person positioned in the middle of the bridge, in front of the console with all the sensor and tactical information fed to it, standing where absolutely everyone there has to look up to see him, and wearing a prominent, highly visible piece of ornamentation should be highly placed isn't a bad guess. I'm curious if it would be possible to show someone who wasn't familiar with the show a still of a normal bridge scene and ask them who their bet was for the person-in-charge (if they could be made to overlook that obviously the guy in alien loaf wouldn't be the hero-ship's captain).

 

[Jayson1]

How do they know what the Captain's Chair is? Is it labelled as such?

Supposing that the person positioned in the middle of the bridge, in front of the console with all the sensor and tactical information fed to it, standing where absolutely everyone there has to look up to see him, and wearing a prominent, highly visible piece of ornamentation should be highly placed isn't a bad guess. I'm curious if it would be possible to show someone who wasn't familiar with the show a still of a normal bridge scene and ask them who their bet was for the person-in-charge (if they could be made to overlook that obviously the guy in alien loaf wouldn't be the hero-ship's captain).

I think they would know about the captain's chair much in the way they still know basic skills in how to run the ship. It isn't just tech knowledge they retain but they also know about how to aproach the issue and try and find out what is going on. That tells me that they also still have all there basic starfleet training knowledge as well and If they didn't you would have people who have no idea on what do once they realize they have no memories..

Jason

 

[Tosk]

I've never considered his assertiveness or Klingon aggressiveness to be something that he lets interfere with being sensible

Except that time he tried to shoot the viewscreen because of something scary on it.

 

[Timo]

Conundrum's a great episode but has some logical problems you just have to ignore not the least of which is Troi beating Data at chess.

But that doesnt happen in the episode. Instead, Data beats Data at chess! He plays both sides of the game - it's he who counts seven moves forward and declares Troi's random move victorious.

Technically, that ought to be impossible from two specific angles. Given how many pieces remain on the boards, if Data sees the trap seven moves ahead, he should be able to avoid it, even if it costs him a bit. OTOH, it really takes a grandmaster to see seven moves ahead even in 2D; the Trek 3D isn't more limiting. So we must deduce that Data found out a way for Troi to win and declared her winner.

Whether that would be throwing the game or honoring their bet, we don't know, because we don't know the specifics of the bet. Perhaps they bet on Troi finding a way to win, rather than on Troi winning?

How do they know what the Captain's Chair is? Is it labelled as such?

Ro certainly recognized her specific pulpit, with cues that all would require an expert eye. Since the heroes supposedly retained their expertise, this should have helped them recognize the CO position as well.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

But that doesnt happen in the episode. Instead, Data beats Data at chess! He plays both sides of the game - it's he who counts seven moves forward and declares Troi's random move victorious.

Technically, that ought to be impossible from two specific angles. Given how many pieces remain on the boards, if Data sees the trap seven moves ahead, he should be able to avoid it, even if it costs him a bit. OTOH, it really takes a grandmaster to see seven moves ahead even in 2D; the Trek 3D isn't more limiting. So we must deduce that Data found out a way for Troi to win and declared her winner.
Timo Saloniemi

Save for your assumption that Data should be able to look further ahead than Troi, there's nothing in the scene to preclude the idea that Troi really spotted (and constructed) the trap earlier than Data, lured him into it, only for him to discover it when he had already taken the bait, and it was too late- a forced mate would follow whatever his defenses -- in fact, Deanna's demeanor suggests this is the case. Though she could of course just have been bluffing up until that point and lucked into being declared the winner the game.

 

[Timo]

But a forced mate in seven moves isn't plausible - there should be dozens of ways out of it, for anybody able to spot it. "Having higher odds of losing the game because of having to dodge the mate" is plausible, but Data shouldn't quit just because his odds worsened a bit.

(That Data can look further ahead than Troi sounds like the definition of a safe assumption. Unless Troi can read Data, that is, and piggyback on his computing skills that way.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

But a forced mate in seven moves isn't plausible - there should be dozens of ways out of it, for anybody able to spot it. "Having higher odds of losing the game because of having to dodge the mate" is plausible, but Data shouldn't quit just because his odds worsened a bit.
Timo Saloniemi

Not too plausible no, but certainly possible. Such examples are historically known from tournament chess, though quite rare.

( And my definition of a forced-mate-in-7 is a mate against which no defense is possible. The best possible defense still results in a mate in 7 moves, subtoptimal defenses only hasten the mate. If there is a way out of it (for the defender), it's no forced mate. As I said, examples of these are rare, but they occur. )

I agree that data could reasonably be expected to look much further ahead than Troi. We already have computers significantly stronger than our world champion today. But I'm just basing my thoughts on what I see in the scene here. We don't know for certain exactly what the extent of the powers of Deanna is.

 

[Timo]

This takes us right into those poker nights of theirs. Poker nightmares! One of the players can count the cards, another can see through them, and a third can read the minds of the rest... And if any of the three defeats the fourth, he will simply gut them with his bare hands. (No, the other bearded one.)

Deanna probably would need to agree not to use her "powers", whatever those are, for defeating Data in this game as well. Unless, again, the bet was about something else besides the obvious.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

But that doesnt happen in the episode. Instead, Data beats Data at chess! He plays both sides of the game - it's he who counts seven moves forward and declares Troi's random move victorious.

Technically, that ought to be impossible from two specific angles. Given how many pieces remain on the boards, if Data sees the trap seven moves ahead, he should be able to avoid it, even if it costs him a bit. OTOH, it really takes a grandmaster to see seven moves ahead even in 2D; the Trek 3D isn't more limiting. So we must deduce that Data found out a way for Troi to win and declared her winner.

Whether that would be throwing the game or honoring their bet, we don't know, because we don't know the specifics of the bet. Perhaps they bet on Troi finding a way to win, rather than on Troi winning?

There is also the obvious fact that Data in at least one move TELLS Troi where she's going wrong. If we consider that he may have been doing that throughout the game, then clearly he might not understand that chess, like Poker, is also a game where you judge what your opponent is like as a player. Telling your opponent what moves they should be making against you is like showing them your poker hand

 

[Nyotarules]

Troi cannot read minds, but she might be able to tell when someone is bluffing