Worf & Dax, Worf & Troi...(Risa Episode)

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Thomas Elliot, Nov 25, 2016.

  1. Thomas Elliot

    Thomas Elliot Commander Red Shirt

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    That it's inappropriate to go out to dinner, or spend private time with an ex-lover when you're already in another relationship.

    Possibly. Or maybe Word just didn't want to spend time worrying about it and the least she could do was be considerate of his feelings. Or maybe she could at least respect their discussion about it to remain private, instead of going against his wishes and pretty much telling everyone at their table that Worf's jealous.

    If Jadzia wanted to keep something private between her and Worf, and Worf totally disregarded her feelings and announced it to their friends in public, he'd be in the wrong as well.

    If my ex-lover was a pleasure woman whose job was to have sex with the patrons at the Playboy Mansion, I'm not going to take my current girlfriend with to the Playboy Mansion, and spend private time with my ex there. Even if I had no intension of cheating whatsoever, I would imagine that my current girlfriend being around a woman (or multiple women) I had had sexual relationships with, would be unnerving at best, and emotionally painful at the worst.

    In addition to that, I'm not going to insist to her that there's nothing wrong with me going out to dinner with another ex-girlfriend.


    Did Worf say she can't eat lunch with her friends Sisko, Bashir, Kira, etc? There's an important distinction between friend and ex-lover.
     
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  2. Mage

    Mage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ok, if you actually use my entire post in your quote.... It's about communication in a relationship. Clearly Worf has insecurities about what's going on. Jadzia could be a bit more understanding about that, and realize they need to talk about this situation. It's not as black and white as you make it out.
     
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  3. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    Your first mistake is trying to make sense of this episode. It's a mess. An insult to the intelligence of the characters and the viewers. The only redeemable part of it was the scene where Worf describes the accident between himself and the human boy. The rest is ridiculous.
     
  4. Hey Missy

    Hey Missy Captain Captain

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    Do not hug me.
     
  5. jmiller

    jmiller Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I'm just surprised you watched that episode on purpose!
     
  6. Sakonna

    Sakonna Commodore Commodore

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    I recently did a rewatch of DS9 with a friend who had never seen it before. "Let He Who Is Without Sin" is one of the only episodes we skipped. I said to her "the only thing you need to know from this episode is that Bashir and Leeta break up, because she's interested in Rom."

    Her response was: "Who's Leeta?" and then "she's been dating Bashir for a year?!?"

    I'm with those who say: don't even try to make sense of this mess. This episode actually takes place a universe or two over (a la "Parallels"). It's much like the Prime universe, only everyone is immature, stupid, and badly written.
     
  7. KelisThePoet

    KelisThePoet Commander Red Shirt

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    This is actually a better explanation for Worf's extreme and caricatured Klingon behavior than the one given in the episode itself. In the episode, Worf claims that he's austere and conservative (culturally), with no sense of fun, because he's holding himself back from being fully Klingon. But I've always thought that it makes more sense, given his upbringing, if he acts that way as an attempt to be hyper-Klingon without fully understanding Klingon culture.
     
  8. KelisThePoet

    KelisThePoet Commander Red Shirt

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    To me, this episode suffers from a problem similar to Tom Paris helping the eco-terrorists in Voyager's "Thirty Days" or Sisko poisoning the Maquis planet in "For the Uniform." In all these episodes a character does something both despicable and out-of-character, but not in a way that seems deliberate by the writers or designed to challenge the audience's sense of ethics (as "In the Pale Moonlight" of Enterprise's "Damage" do). Rather, it seems like the writers of these episodes just don't take the horrifying (potential?) consequences of the characters' despicable actions very seriously.
     
  9. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    I love Worf and Jadzia together. I hate this episode. Here's why...

    The central conflict between the characters is communication and differing expectations. Neither one of them is inherently wrong. Worf thinks it's inappropriate to be making pottery in your bathing suit with an ex (I personally agree with him). Jadzia says "suck it up buttercup, this is who I am." She's technically not doing anything wrong but she is also completely dismissive of his feelings. She says "trust me" but it's a relatively new relationship, on what basis does he have to trust her? We as viewers are supposed to take her side and think he's just being a stick in the mud, and though he overreacted, he had every right to be upset. If your significant other took you on a romantic vacation only to meet up with an ex and spend a bunch of time alone with that person, I bet you'd have a problem with it too.

    The bigger issue is that Star Trek was unequipped to adequately present this topic. Neither TNG nor DS9 had ever up to this point been very good at making a romantic storyline the center focus. At the most, all we ever got was the love interest of the week who'd be gone by the end credits. They had never explored relationship dynamics of this depth before and it was painfully obvious. Worf and Jadzia are the first pairing of two main characters. I think the nuances of long term relationships was handled a bit better on Voyager between Paris and Torres, but that was after Worf and Jadzia's growing pains. And I also think most people would agree that as their relationship matured, their interactions got much better. I have always been sad that we didn't get a season 7 with these two, I think we would have actually seen some real relationship exploration that wasn't so contrived and hokey.
     
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  10. The Grim Ghost

    The Grim Ghost Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah I really doubt most people would be cool with this situation:

    It's one thing to maintain past relationships, it's quite another to go on a vacation to a PLEASURE PLANET and decide to spend a lot of time with a former lover doing vaguely sexy stuff while your new relationship is obviously upset and suffering from it.


    Of course Worf also acts like a colossal asshole in this episode and does far worse things. Nobody comes off well here. Lousy episode all around.
     
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  11. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Interesting. I saw an interview of Behr on YouTube where he was complaining about how Roddenberry, Berman, and others ruined his story for Captain's Holiday by adding a bunch of half naked people in bathing suits or something. I don't understand what's so bad about it. I've always liked the episode. Especially compared to the sequel(Q-Pid). And even more so compared to the second sequel, Q-Less, where we're told over and over again how attractive Vash is supposed to be.

    This also reminds me of something I've heard on these boards; that Behr was concerned about the growing popularity of Dukat, and didn't want people "rooting for Hitler" so he made Dukat more and more evil in the last season or two culminating in demonic-glowing red eyes Dukat.

    So yeah, Captain's Holiday is a solid outing in my book. Let He Who is Without Sin? What series is that on? Never heard of it...:shrug: