Woman of the Week #5: Simone de Beauvoir

[{ Emilia }]

Now that is a change from last week's Princess Leia, isn't it?

Do yourself a favour and don't close the thread yet.

Simone de Beauvoir is the godmother of modern feminism and was just a pretty damn interesting person in general. Now (as usual) some people will be thinking: "Hey, wasn't she with Jean-Paul Sartre?". Yes, she was! But it's not like that is what she is famous for.

She didn't like being called a philosopher but I don't see what's wrong with that. She wrote some very influential philosophical works, mostly dealing with the situation of women in her time and history. But she didn't just sit in a quiet room and write. She was a very active woman who was very well-known all over Europe.

A female intellectual in a time when men dominated culture (don't they still?) her proud father would reportedly boast: “Simone thinks like a man!”

Gee, thanks I guess?! Women obviously can't be intellectuals, huh?

And then came "The Second Sex", her ground-breaking work on modern feminism. A bold, very intelligent, thorough analysis of the situation. Heck, even the Vatican hated it. That's a good sign, huh?

She distinguished between sex and gender, explaining the cultural part of sex, and how our societies shape expectations of female behaviour and values. She wrote about the "psychological denigration of women", was politically and socially active.

I'll finish this with a quote from her wiki page:

“What a curse to be a woman!” Beauvoir writes, quoting Kierkegaard. “And yet the very worst curse when one is a woman is, in fact, not to understand that it is one.”

No one has done more than Beauvoir to explain the conditions of that curse, and no one has more eloquently, irately challenged us to turn that curse into a blessing.

So, here's to women!



What are your thoughts on feminism? Do feminists scare the hell out of you?
I'll admit feminism can be pretty militant and I never really considered myself a feminist when growing up. But it's pretty damn obvious that true equality hasn't happened yet.

Women like Simone de Beauvoir have made the world a better place for people like myself. Thanks for that, Simone!

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I'm sure it's no surprise how I answered the poll.

I hadn't heard of her before you introduced me to her, but obviously I'm a fan. Feminism seems like it was a lot different at the time. Women had fewer opportunities and weren't really taken seriously as intellectuals. Thinking was "men's work."

One of the more interesting passages from her Wiki page:

In the chapter "Woman: Myth and Reality" of The Second Sex, Beauvoir argued that men had made women the "Other" in society by putting a false aura of "mystery" around them. She argued that men used this as an excuse not to understand women or their problems and not to help them, and that this stereotyping was always done in societies by the group higher in the hierarchy to the group lower in the hierarchy. She wrote that this also happened on the basis of other categories of identity, such as race, class, and religion. But she said that it was nowhere more true than with gender in which men stereotyped women and used it as an excuse to organize society into a patriarchy.

That sort of thing still happens today, even if we aren't so blatant about making women into second-class citizens. There's still the whole "air of mystery" some men assign to women, in order to demean and dismiss their problems.

I've recently come to the conclusion that it's not helpful for anyone to consider him/herself any kind of "-ist." What you believe in one particular area is not who you are as a person.

I wonder if Ms. de Beauvoir would've gotten behind a sentiment like that.

 

[{ Emilia }]

In the chapter "Woman: Myth and Reality" of The Second Sex, Beauvoir argued that men had made women the "Other" in society by putting a false aura of "mystery" around them. She argued that men used this as an excuse not to understand women or their problems and not to help them, and that this stereotyping was always done in societies by the group higher in the hierarchy to the group lower in the hierarchy. She wrote that this also happened on the basis of other categories of identity, such as race, class, and religion. But she said that it was nowhere more true than with gender in which men stereotyped women and used it as an excuse to organize society into a patriarchy.

That sort of thing still happens today, even if we aren't so blatant about making women into second-class citizens. There's still the whole "air of mystery" some men assign to women, in order to demean and dismiss their problems.

That is a very interesting point you quoted and it's something that has annoyed me for ages.

I'm so tired of hearing men say "men can't understand women!". It's utter nonsense. We're just people. Treat us like normal people.

We don't have a special kind of weird female rationality. We're perfectly capable of logical reasoning so you guys shouldn't really have issues understanding us.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

In the chapter "Woman: Myth and Reality" of The Second Sex, Beauvoir argued that men had made women the "Other" in society by putting a false aura of "mystery" around them. She argued that men used this as an excuse not to understand women or their problems and not to help them, and that this stereotyping was always done in societies by the group higher in the hierarchy to the group lower in the hierarchy. She wrote that this also happened on the basis of other categories of identity, such as race, class, and religion. But she said that it was nowhere more true than with gender in which men stereotyped women and used it as an excuse to organize society into a patriarchy.

That sort of thing still happens today, even if we aren't so blatant about making women into second-class citizens. There's still the whole "air of mystery" some men assign to women, in order to demean and dismiss their problems.

That is a very interesting point you quoted and it's something that has annoyed me for ages.

I'm so tired of hearing men say "men can't understand women!". It's utter nonsense. We're just people. Treat us like normal people.

We don't have a special kind of weird female rationality. We're perfectly capable of logical reasoning so you guys shouldn't really have issues understanding us.

Yeah, I think some men falsely assume that they can't understand women and their problems because women are just so basically different. They aren't, it's just that women have a different perspective and different point-of-view. It's not an intrinsic thing, either, it arises from the dynamics of how men and women deal with each other. It would be like women saying they can't understand men--the deficiency is in the failure of one individual to relate to another, not the fabricated "alienness" of the person you claim you want to understand. "Othering" women is also a good tool for excluding them, of course--same way it works on everyone else who isn't in a dominant social position (read: anyone who isn't a straight, white male in a Western country.)

But I think I am talking about symbolic interactionism now so I might end up losing most people if I continue.

 

[Lumi]

I believe in equality for all human beings regardless of sex, race, age, religion. Definitely not a feminist, though... at least not by today's standards.

 

[{ Emilia }]

I believe in equality for all human beings regardless of sex, race, age, religion. Definitely not a feminist, though... at least not by today's standards.

See, I get that. Feminism does seem militant at times but I honestly wonder if this negative view on it is just a gut reaction sparked by the male-dominated media and by how society portrays feminism in a negative way.

Some feminists do make me roll my eyes. But often it's just inconvenient truths we don't like to hear.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I believe in equality for all human beings regardless of sex, race, age, religion. Definitely not a feminist, though... at least not by today's standards.

See, I get that. Feminism does seem militant at times but I honestly wonder if this negative view on it is just a gut reaction sparked by the male-dominated media and by how society portrays feminism in a negative way.

Some feminists do make me roll my eyes. But often it's just inconvenient truths we don't like to hear.

It influenced me, as well. Then I realized, like you said, that male-dominated media have a vested interest in grabbing onto the most extreme examples of feminism they can find, holding them up for everyone to see, then asking, "Do you really want to support such crazy women and their ideas?" It's been quite effective at quelling support for feminism.

I don't think it happens as much as it used to (feminism in general has kinda dropped off the cultural radar) but it happened enough that people still remember it and are influenced by it.

 

[Lumi]

I believe in equality for all human beings regardless of sex, race, age, religion. Definitely not a feminist, though... at least not by today's standards.

See, I get that. Feminism does seem militant at times but I honestly wonder if this negative view on it is just a gut reaction sparked by the male-dominated media and by how society portrays feminism in a negative way.

Some feminists do make me roll my eyes. But often it's just inconvenient truths we don't like to hear.

I think that the issue is taken too far, and rather than equality, a large number of 'feminists' seem to be pushing for superiority. I don't believe anyone is more important than anyone else. That's what equality is!

Sigh.

 

[{ Emilia }]

a large number of 'feminists' seem to be pushing for superiority.

That's complete nonsense, sorry. Specially the "a large number" part. Most feminists and feminist scholars are very reasonable people. What you said is an insane misrepresentation.

On the other hand wouldn't you welcome a female overlord?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I believe in equality for all human beings regardless of sex, race, age, religion. Definitely not a feminist, though... at least not by today's standards.

See, I get that. Feminism does seem militant at times but I honestly wonder if this negative view on it is just a gut reaction sparked by the male-dominated media and by how society portrays feminism in a negative way.

Some feminists do make me roll my eyes. But often it's just inconvenient truths we don't like to hear.

I think that the issue is taken too far, and rather than equality, a large number of 'feminists' seem to be pushing for superiority. I don't believe anyone is more important than anyone else. That's what equality is!

Sigh.

Apart from the occasional kook (and kooks exist in all social movements), where have you seen women pushing for superiority? I'm not aware of any movement with significant support that's asking for that, just stuff like the right to equal pay as men, access to contraception, etc. Nothing superior about wanting those.

Lumi, I think you've bought into the male-driven propaganda that most feminists are crazy man-haters. It is simply not true.

 

[Lumi]

See, I get that. Feminism does seem militant at times but I honestly wonder if this negative view on it is just a gut reaction sparked by the male-dominated media and by how society portrays feminism in a negative way.

Some feminists do make me roll my eyes. But often it's just inconvenient truths we don't like to hear.

I think that the issue is taken too far, and rather than equality, a large number of 'feminists' seem to be pushing for superiority. I don't believe anyone is more important than anyone else. That's what equality is!

Sigh.

Apart from the occasional kook (and kooks exist in all social movements), where have you seen women pushing for superiority? I'm not aware of any movement with significant support that's asking for that, just stuff like the right to equal pay as men, access to contraception, etc. Nothing superior about wanting those.

Lumi, I think you've bought into the male-driven propaganda that most feminists are crazy man-haters. It is simply not true.

Ah, this is where I just don't fit in. Equal pay is one thing. As for contraception, I am all for it... just not the type of 'contraception' that ends a human life. This is precisely what I was talking about above. I believe in equality for all human life, from conception to natural death.

Ok, bash away!

 

[{ Emilia }]

Ah, this is where I just don't fit in. Equal pay is one thing. As for contraception, I am all for it... just not the type of 'contraception' that ends a human life. This is precisely what I was talking about above. I believe in equality for all human life, from conception to natural death.

Ok, bash away!

No, thanks. I'd like this thread to be about Simone de Beauvoir and feminism.

Not another of those endless threads about how conservative Americans hate contraception. It's a topic I have no interest in as a European. Sorry.

I know it's rude and I know I can't tell people what to talk about but please make a special thread about your special American issues. I'm tired of these American conservative/liberal debates coming into every thread.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I think that the issue is taken too far, and rather than equality, a large number of 'feminists' seem to be pushing for superiority. I don't believe anyone is more important than anyone else. That's what equality is!

Sigh.

Apart from the occasional kook (and kooks exist in all social movements), where have you seen women pushing for superiority? I'm not aware of any movement with significant support that's asking for that, just stuff like the right to equal pay as men, access to contraception, etc. Nothing superior about wanting those.

Lumi, I think you've bought into the male-driven propaganda that most feminists are crazy man-haters. It is simply not true.

Ah, this is where I just don't fit in. Equal pay is one thing. As for contraception, I am all for it... just not the type of 'contraception' that ends a human life. This is precisely what I was talking about above. I believe in equality for all human life, from conception to natural death.

Ok, bash away!

I'm not interested in sidetracking into an abortion debate. The bottom line is that women who want access to contraception should have it, and not be denied because some men want to perpetuate patriarchal oppression of women. Whether you think abortion should be legal is a totally separate issue and not really on-point here. I was just trying to illustrate that the things feminists are asking for don't seek to give women "superiority," they are very reasonable requests.

 

[JoeZhang]

What are your thoughts on feminism?

I did a modern feminism elective at University because a friend and I worked out that it it would be a 'target rich environment', beyond that I could lie and say I've given it a lot of thought but I haven't - I know a bit about feminist theories as a social sciences PhD (you can't escape it) but it's not something I'm particularly knowledgeable about.

 

[lurok]

I remember enjoying reading The Blood Of Others a while back. Never seen the Chabrol film version with Jodie Foster though.

 

[MacLeod]

Ah, this is where I just don't fit in. Equal pay is one thing. As for contraception, I am all for it... just not the type of 'contraception' that ends a human life. This is precisely what I was talking about above. I believe in equality for all human life, from conception to natural death.

Ok, bash away!

No, thanks. I'd like this thread to be about Simone de Beauvoir and feminism.

Not another of those endless threads about how conservative Americans hate contraception. It's a topic I have no interest in as a European. Sorry.

I know it's rude and I know I can't tell people what to talk about but please make a special thread about your special American issues. I'm tired of these American conservative/liberal debates coming into every thread.

Well Lumi gives her location as Canada, and if that's her nationality as well. Her comments would have nothing to do with conservative Americans. Just her viewpoint which she is entitled to have whether we agree with it or not.

As for the theme of the thread, I'm all for equality. Against all forms of discrimenation, whether it be negative or positive discrimination.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

As for the theme of the thread, I'm all for equality. Against all forms of discrimenation, whether it be negative or positive discrimination.

That is really the heart of the matter. Most people say this, but few actually know what that means or how to accomplish it. It is much more complex than we typically give it credit for.

 

[{ Emilia }]

As for the theme of the thread, I'm all for equality. Against all forms of discrimenation, whether it be negative or positive discrimination.

That is really the heart of the matter. Most people say this, but few actually know what that means or how to accomplish it. It is much more complex than we typically give it credit for.

I think gender discrimination these days isn't much of a legal issue but more of a cultural issue. It's not laws that need to change, it's people's mindsets.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

As for the theme of the thread, I'm all for equality. Against all forms of discrimenation, whether it be negative or positive discrimination.

That is really the heart of the matter. Most people say this, but few actually know what that means or how to accomplish it. It is much more complex than we typically give it credit for.

I think gender discrimination these days isn't much of a legal issue but more of a cultural issue. It's not laws that need to change, it's people's mindsets.

Yes, exactly. Unfortunately, it is hard to talk about what people "should" or "shouldn't" do without some jumping to conclusions that we're talking about outlawing things or trying to silence debate.

 

[sidious618]

I definitely consider myself a feminist. There are militant feminists who hate men, sure, but you get that in any movement and often you get more crazies than the feminist movement has. I'm not aware of any extremist feminist group going around killing people, y'know?