Wolf 359 VS Dominion Battle

[RobertScorpio]

I know it was on short order, but only 40 ships made it to Wolf 359 in time to do battle with the Borg Cube that Picard/Locutus was on. Yet, in Sacrafice of Angels, 600 or more ships are there...is it because they built up more ships after 359?

And another thing..where are all the other Federation ship? I assume Starfleet vessels are,well, made with Earth designs. If there are all these civilizations in the Federation, then why don't we see any Vulcan or other ships as part of that Dominion Armada..

But back to Wolf 359. Picard used the old 'transponder' trick, but on all the ships at one time? Not one of those ships could get a shot in or ram it? Seems like STARFLEET tactical classes did not train them enough while they were in the Academy..

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Kaziarl]

The problem was the didn't know anything about borg capabilities or weaknesses. Picard, once they retrieved him from the cube, had quite a bit of insider information.

 

[Augustus]

I think it is simply a matter of story. I mean how many ships does Starfleet have? No one knows, at least not that I have seen. But at the time of Best of Both Worlds, 50 ships was a lot more than we had ever even thought about seeing on Trek.
But for matters of story, the fleet "grew" to be several thousand or more I would assume.

 

[JoeZhang]

But back to Wolf 359. Picard used the old 'transponder' trick, but on all the ships at one time?

Rob
Scorpio

I don't understand this reference?

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Must be referring to Star Trek II when Kirk lowered the Reliant's shields using that code.

As for the number of ships vs. number of available ships. The Borg were reasonably close to Earth, so 50 was the most they could muster in the time given.

Also, after the Borg incident, plus later Dominion encounter, it's concievable that Starfleet refitted and recommissioned older vessels (like the ones seen at the scrap yards in Reunification ), hence the large number of Miranda class vessels in DS9 battles.

As for non-Starfleet ships, I got the impression that it was Federation policy to assimilate local defense forces into Starfleet. As stated in one DS9 episode regarding Bajor joining the Federation, someone mentioned folding the Bajoran militia into Starfleet.

 

[JoeZhang]

Must be referring to Star Trek II when Kirk lowered the Reliant's shields using that code.

Ok now I'm more confused, I don't remember any reference to that in the episode and we know that when they attacked Sisko's ship they battered down the shields in seconds.

 

[Finn]

Its pretty obvious that the fleet that met the borg cube at Wolf 359 wasn't the entire starfleet, since we saw older ships afterwards.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Must be referring to Star Trek II when Kirk lowered the Reliant's shields using that code.

Ok now I'm more confused, I don't remember any reference to that in the episode and we know that when they attacked Sisko's ship they battered down the shields in seconds.

There is no reference to that in the Borg battle.

The real source of the Borg victory was Locutus/Picard's knowledge of Starfleet tactics and, of course, superior Borg weaponry/defensive capabilities.

 

[smeos]

The discrepancy in ships is explainable with two simple hypotheses:

1) The Borg knifed through the Federation so quickly that the majority of Starfleet (which would naturally be deployed at the fringes of the Federation) did not have time to respond in time to reach Wolf 359.

2) After the battle, Starfleet simply began building more and more ships. The next six years or so were fairly hectic for them, so it would stand to reason that they wouldn't see any reason to slow down ship production.

 

[Cyke101]

I think it's important to note that against the Dominion, Starfleet had time to prepare, ie build more ships, get ships out of the mothballs, and recall ships into a tighter net. By the time war would break out, Starfleet would be able organize their ships into fleets of a hundred ships or more. As opposed to Wolf 359, when the Borg came much ahead of schedule and caught everyone by surprise.

 

[the_wildcard]

Haha, I think the "Mars defense perimeter" scene in BOBW says it all......

 

[Captain W Riker]

The discrepancy in ships is explainable with two simple hypotheses:

1) The Borg knifed through the Federation so quickly that the majority of Starfleet (which would naturally be deployed at the fringes of the Federation) did not have time to respond in time to reach Wolf 359.

2) After the battle, Starfleet simply began building more and more ships. The next six years or so were fairly hectic for them, so it would stand to reason that they wouldn't see any reason to slow down ship production.

Exactly.

 

[Dayton3]

I always figured that the Starfleet ships at Wolf-359 were simply the Starfleet ships stationed near Earth and within a day or so travel time.

That was the reason they could only get 40 to Wolf-359.

IIRC, in "Sacrifice of Angels" Starfleet took weeks to get their 600 ships there. And even then the 9th fleet never made it.

 

[Augustus]

Maybe I am just taking the fun out of speculation, but I figured it was just because the producers at the time of BoBW, never thought about having 600 or more ships doing battle, nor wanting to invest in the cost it would have taken to show that much wreckage....plus...600, I mean I don't care how strong the borg are, 600 ships would destroy them.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Maybe I am just taking the fun out of speculation, but I figured it was just because the producers at the time of BoBW, never thought about having 600 or more ships doing battle, nor wanting to invest in the cost it would have taken to show that much wreckage....plus...600, I mean I don't care how strong the borg are, 600 ships would destroy them.

Good point..because that was pre-CGI right? So the cost could have been prohibitive..

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Dayton3]

Maybe I am just taking the fun out of speculation, but I figured it was just because the producers at the time of BoBW, never thought about having 600 or more ships doing battle, nor wanting to invest in the cost it would have taken to show that much wreckage....plus...600, I mean I don't care how strong the borg are, 600 ships would destroy them.

True.

And people forget, the 40 ships at Wolf-359 must have caused some damage to the Borg cube.

Proof?

The Enterprise was hours behind the Borg ship after using the deflector pulse against them and damaging the warp drive. And the Enterprise couldn't even keep up with the Borg for more than a few hours anyway.

But, after Wolf-359 the Enterprise manages to overtake the Borg and force the confrontation where they recover Locutus.

It appears clear that the Cube was damaged enough at Wolf-359 that they either stayed at Wolf-359 for several hours conducting repairs or they continued on toward Earth at much reduced speed.

Remember that most times we've seen Starfleet vessels engage the Borg that Starfleet at least manages to inflict some damage.

 

[smeos]

Not necessarily. It was established in VOY that at least some people were assimilated at Wolf 359. It's possible that they were merely going through the wreckage and escape pods and assimilating the survivors.

 

[Dayton3]

Not necessarily. It was established in VOY that at least some people were assimilated at Wolf 359. It's possible that they were merely going through the wreckage and escape pods and assimilating the survivors.

No offense, but Voyager and its usage of the Borg was a bad joke.

Mark my words, any future Trek series that deals with the Borg will decanonize all that.

 

[Augustus]

You know, I haven't watched a lot of Voyager since it went off the air, but I don't remember their treatment of the Borg being all that bad. The parts that I remember, I pretty much liked.

 

[shatastrophic]

You know, I haven't watched a lot of Voyager since it went off the air, but I don't remember their treatment of the Borg being all that bad. The parts that I remember, I pretty much liked.

It wasn't how they changed from TNG to VOY. The changes are part of it but they could've gone multiple ways with them.

It's just they were introduced to us as the unstoppable enemy. Thats why they didn't use them as much in TNG. Once you consistently stop or beat the unstoppable enemy, they become less threatening. By the end of Voyager it was no longer exciting to have them as an adversary.