Why was the Federation created?

[Timo]

Why is the president presiding over a judicial proceeding?

Where?

In the beginning of ST4, there is no judicial proceeding - there's a diplomatic meeting of some sort, with both UFP and Klingon top representatives present.

In the end of ST4, there is no judicial proceeding - the President of the UFP has come to cancel it, as he has used his powers (perhaps direct judicial, but more probably practical political ones) to get all charges dropped.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Why is the president presiding over a judicial proceeding?

Where?

In the beginning of ST4, there is no judicial proceeding - there's a diplomatic meeting of some sort, with both UFP and Klingon top representatives present.

In the end of ST4, there is no judicial proceeding - the President of the UFP has come to cancel it, as he has used his powers (perhaps direct judicial, but more probably practical political ones) to get all charges dropped.

Hmm. The opening and closing sequences of ST4 are usually interpreted as Kirk and Company's court-martial. Are you certain it wasn't explicitly identified as such? (I don't have a copy of ST4.)

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The writers of Trek never were good at keeping track of the difference between the Federation and Starfleet, nor at that whole separation-of-powers-and-responsibilities thing.

 

[Wingsley]

It was all made vague enough to allow plenty of wiggle room. So if you ask 11 fans what something means, don't be surprised if you get 11 different answers.

 

[ahkyahnan]

Would he be? I mean, my father was from Michigan before moving to Ohio (just like Amanda was from Earth before moving to Vulcan), but that doesn't mean that I inherited Michigan citizenship. In fact, unless I'm mistaken, my father lost Michigan citizenship upon moving to Ohio. Is it probable that Federation Member State citizenship laws would resemble those of sovereign, independent polities, or is it probable that movement between Member States would be so common that citizenship would be contingent upon where you are currently residing?

I think a more applicable analogy might be relocating to a different country...not across state lines. Unless I'm mistaken, if I as a born in the U.S. citizen marry someone from Germany and relocate there, I don't automatically become a German citizen, nor do I lose my U.S. citizenship.

Now if we have a child, I'm not sure how initial citizenship is determined, but many people today have dual-citizenship in different countries, so it's possible Spock could have dual-citizenship on both Earth and Vulcan.

I'd think that member planets would probably also have some sort of 'open border' treaty as being a member of the Federation, sorta like what's being adopted in the EU maybe.

Mark

 

[ahkyahnan]

NATO member's ships belong to to the fleets of their respected nations, UN peacekeeping forces belong to their various militaries. American national guard units belong to the state governments, even when they are called up for national service they deploy as units, discreet commands. Coalition forces in Iraq would often have their own separate operating areas.

During the episode Court Martial everyone in the bar scene and the court room were humans. Except Spock. All of Kirk's superior officers were Humans. We never saw a non-human Star Fleet admiral until TNG, suggesting at least that in Kirk's time Star Fleet was a human organization. And again, other member would have their own ships too. Perhaps it was a matter of sovereignty, maybe the member worlds didn't want the central government to have it's own fleet.

I think these are some good points for consideration. There are several possibilities of course, but these are reasonable as any other.

The point about the member worlds not wanting the central government to be too powerful...at least at first...is important I think. Something like the Federation isn't going to become a self-sovereign entity overnight. Each member world would need time to become more comfortable with the arrangement before handing over more and more power. The U.S. went through an 'evolutionary' period early on, and the EU continues to do so today. So maybe TOS occurred right around the same time as some formative milestone for the Federation. Just one possibility.

Mark

 

[T'Girl]

^^^ I guess what I was describing was a confederation of semi-sovereign states, which would have adapted over time to the needs of the various members needs into the Federation we see in Picard's time. It's possible that some of the members were uncomfortable with a few races possessing vast fleets while they themselves had only a handful of small ships. By the mid 24 century the Sol system might still have a coast guard type organization separate from Star Fleet, good for customs, smugglers, rescue, and law enforcement. Not good enough to stop a Borg cube during The Best Of Both Worlds.

Actual Sci I do think that a lot of the human appearing officers and crew aboard the Enterprise and stationed at starbases were non-human "aliens." I've been playing with the hypothesis the Lt. Sulu might be an alien or half human. Based partial on the fact that Sulu isn't a Japanese name.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^^^ I guess what I was describing was a confederation of semi-sovereign states, which would have adapted over time to the needs of the various members needs into the Federation we see in Picard's time. It's possible that some of the members were uncomfortable with a few races possessing vast fleets while they themselves had only a handful of small ships. By the mid 24 century the Sol system might still have a coast guard type organization separate from Star Fleet, good for customs, smugglers, rescue, and law enforcement. Not good enough to stop a Borg cube during The Best Of Both Worlds.

Actual Sci I do think that a lot of the human appearing officers and crew aboard the Enterprise and stationed at starbases were non-human "aliens." I've been playing with the hypothesis the Lt. Sulu might be an alien or half human. Based partial on the fact that Sulu isn't a Japanese name.

Isn't Sulu "pan-Asian" rather than Japanese?

 

[Captain Robert April]

Sulu is from San Francisco, so who the hell knows....

 

[Mr_Homn]

Actual Sci I do think that a lot of the human appearing officers and crew aboard the Enterprise and stationed at starbases were non-human "aliens." I've been playing with the hypothesis the Lt. Sulu might be an alien or half human. Based partial on the fact that Sulu isn't a Japanese name.

i would like to hear more about this theory

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sulu is from San Francisco, so who the hell knows....

True, his first name is Japanese. His last name is the same as a sea near the Philippines. And his ancestors lived in Chinatown in an American city.

 

[Captain Robert April]

And the case can be made that Sulu's middle name is Walter, so...

 

[Wingsley]

One issue has been overlooked in this thread thus far: the word federation. In terms of a government/political entity, the term means something. It has connotations. TOS's makers obviously chose this as the right term for their purposes.

Large metropolitan federations in the United States have certain basic characteristics. For one, these metro-federations were created by the local autonomous municipalities so that these municipalities could combine their resources in order to do things they could not do on their own. Los Angeles County and Miami-Dade of the 1960's, '70's and '80's would be two good examples. In essence, the smaller, localized entities empowered the new regional federation to take on the burdens/responsibilities that the local entities chose not to. The municipalities assign powers to the federation, and provide support whatever legal machinery it takes to establish said federation and taxpayer funds to keep the federation going. If I'm not mistaken, police and fire/rescue services are examples of this federation providing services. These local governments also provide the governing power for the regional federation.

I would assume some similarities between these metro-federations and the United Federation of Planets. That's one issue that STAR TREK: ENTERPRISE seemed to be getting right. Archer recognized that all these quarreling interstellar powers (Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, etc.) were weaker as individual entities and this meant a lack of cooperation, a lack of sharing of information, and a lack of trust. This led to security vulnerabilities (the Xindi, the Romulans). So Archer assumed to role of deep space diplomat, and began negotiating to get these various parties talking. This eventually resulted in the Coalition of Planets, which evolved quickly into the Federation. It was obvious from ENT and from "Journey to Babel" that no Federation member-worlds were looking to surrender their local sovereignty by creating some new galactic nation or empire. Instead, they assigned powers to a federation, and then worked out a system to support it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And the case can be made that Sulu's middle name is Walter, so...

Not sure what you're trying to prove here. The facts behind Sulu's creation and development are well documented.

 

[Timo]

Hmm. The opening and closing sequences of ST4 are usually interpreted as Kirk and Company's court-martial. Are you certain it wasn't explicitly identified as such?

Well, in the first "court" sequence, it hasn't even been decided that Kirk should be prosecuted. Accusations have been made, charges on violations of SF regulations are on our hero, but there's no decision on court proceedings yet. And the words "court martial" aren't in the dialogue, no.

The heroes probably fully expected to be standing trial in a regular court martial at the end of the movie, albeit a high-profile one. Dunno if the session we saw was supposed to be that, or perhaps some sort of a preliminary instead. After all, it would have been an extremely disorganized court, as Spock hadn't yet indicated he wanted to "stand with the accused". It certainly never grew into a proper court martial, , but was aborted well before it started. So we shouldn't use it as proof that the President of the UFP would have judicial powers; quite possibly, the real judge was in the stalls, grinding his teeth along with all the Admirals who wanted to see Kirk hang, and the heroes were surprised to see the President in the podium, coming to declare his pardon.

In any case, the latter meeting doesn't feature the words "court martial", either. It opens in mid-proceedings, with "May the accused please move forward", after which the President asks "How do you plead?", then reveals that they are pardoned, and refers to the "Council" as the force behind the decisions.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

One issue has been overlooked in this thread thus far: the word federation. In terms of a government/political entity, the term means something.

Of course, real-life uses, e.g. "Russian Federation," cut the other way from the metro-federation example. Federation is a meaningful term, but need not mean what it says when it comes to the name of a government. "Kingdom," "democracy," and "republic" all mean something too, but the "United Kingdom" can't be analyzed solely or even principally in terms of its monarchy, and the less said about the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea," the better.

The heroes probably fully expected to be standing trial in a regular court martial at the end of the movie, albeit a high-profile one. Dunno if the session we saw was supposed to be that, or perhaps some sort of a preliminary instead. After all, it would have been an extremely disorganized court, as Spock hadn't yet indicated he wanted to "stand with the accused".

I'm actually quite fine with that. For one thing, real trials don't let you "stand with the accused" just because you want to.