Why Unification?

[Denise]

I'm not sure where to put this, but it's a question I have always had.

Why does Spock, specifically, want to push for Reunification? In TNG he says that both peoples want it (I guess I can see it--I have a friend from South Korea that thinks it would be good for the two Koreas to be reunited). So is it meeting the Romulan Commander that makes him start thinking about whether it is possible? Does she express a desire for it?

I guess even the Romulans can see that their Empire is corrupt and collapsing, and they hope for something better.

I know that Enterprise had these Romulans that kept wanting to take over Vulcan and steer it, deep state style.

But again, do we have any Vulcans who want it (besides Spock)? Is it just for purposes of peace? Is it that he thinks (and other Vulcans think, too) that they have gone too far with logic and the expulsion of emotions? It seems to me that if the Romulans come back to Vulcan, they will bring their emotionalism with them, and then where will that lead? In Discovery, the Vulcan leader/spokesperson says that Ni'Var is having internal problems trying to merge the two societies.

Anyway, would appreciate any clarification on this.

 

[Oddish]

Why did Germany want to reunify, despite decades of separation?
Why was North Vietnam willing to sacrifice over 600,000 people to reunify with South, whether the south wanted it or not?
Why do they still talk about reunifying Korea, 70+ years after it split?

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

I'm not sure where to put this, but it's a question I have always had.

Why does Spock, specifically, want to push for Reunification?

Perhaps because TOS' 25th anniversary was afoot, and TNG ratings were down beforehand?

 

[Oddish]

Perhaps because TOS' 25th anniversary was afoot, and TNG ratings were down beforehand?

Bingo.

 

[Markonian]

Unification, if it went down the ideal path, would benefit the children of Vulcan:
* The Romulans would retain their emotional freedom but have their authoritarian excesses tempered.
* The Remans can be free and live as equals.
* Vulcan society strengthens when they balance their following the Surakian way, while allowing a diverse society (e.g. Romulan segments) flourish.

Spock, by the time of TNG thanks for Genesian rebirth and V'gerian epiphany, has found a balance between logic and emotion, and can logically deduce the benefit of having a society that can live like that.

Also, does this thread better suit TOS/TAS or the TNG subforum?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

For the same reasons nobody discussed allowing Kirk's two halves to remain separate entities in "The Enemy Within" (darn, now I'm kind of curious what an argument for that would sound like and who would make it)

1) Each half needs what the half has (willpower and passion, in Kirk's case; logic and emotion in Vulcan and Romulus's cases)

2) They used to be a single whole.

3) They'll perish without each other.

 

[BK613]

Also, does this thread better suit TOS/TAS or the TNG subforum?

TNG, IMO, since it is dealing their version of Romulans in their century with a Spock that is pos-TOS movies.

 

[1001001]

TNG, IMO, since it is dealing their version of Romulans in their century with a Spock that is pos-TOS movies.

That makes sense.

Moving to TNG

 

[fireproof78]

Spock, by the time of TNG thanks for Genesian rebirth and V'gerian epiphany, has found a balance between logic and emotion, and can logically deduce the benefit of having a society that can live like that.

Indeed, yes. And, as strange as it sounds, he got a lesson in this potential cooperation from Nimbus III, and his experiences with the conspiracy on TUC. Again, you have Romulans willing to work together with others for when it suits their needs. Why not work to unite them again and have their strengths benefits strengthen each other.

 

[Qonundrum]

I'm not sure where to put this, but it's a question I have always had.

Don't ask those, creative thinking is only allowed in creative writing class!

Why does Spock, specifically, want to push for Reunification? In TNG he says that both peoples want it (I guess I can see it--I have a friend from South Korea that thinks it would be good for the two Koreas to be reunited). So is it meeting the Romulan Commander that makes him start thinking about whether it is possible? Does she express a desire for it?

I rewatched this story a few weeks ago and I don't even remember. I don't think he was going go-go dancing with the Romulan Commander from "The Enterprise Incident", which would be "small universe syndrome" anyway if she was to make a return (and she would have been better-suited for "Face of the Enemy", but they got Carolyn Seymour back - with a different commander name to help battle small universe syndrome with, even if it would have been fun for her to reprise the role, it's cool they went a different direction...)

I think it had something to do with his involvement with Khitomer and STVI, and wanting to make the universe an easier place for everyone to sing about soft drinks.

I guess even the Romulans can see that their Empire is corrupt and collapsing, and they hope for something better.

Dissident groups existed, but they're glossed over.

I know that Enterprise had these Romulans that kept wanting to take over Vulcan and steer it, deep state style.

The ship or some of the crew? Which crew? As usual, both sides engage in espionage but it doesn't go in very deep because it's still entertainment, just like TOS was. The concept of "deep state" or whatever is even less a faction in this, unless you mean the Tal Shiar since Section 31 wasn't even invented until later on in DS9's run.

But again, do we have any Vulcans who want it (besides Spock)? Is it just for purposes of peace? Is it that he thinks (and other Vulcans think, too) that they have gone too far with logic and the expulsion of emotions? It seems to me that if the Romulans come back to Vulcan, they will bring their emotionalism with them, and then where will that lead?

Ask the script writers, surely? The story was in two parts and you're raising good questions.

Also, "Up the Long Ladder" from season 2 also had two factions of the same colony and each was bickering about the other's differences. Did they figure out how to compromise? Is it that hard to do?

[quote[In Discovery, the Vulcan leader/spokesperson says that Ni'Var is having internal problems trying to merge the two societies.[/quote]

Yeah, unlike for DS9, in TNG it's glossed over as they're hyping up Spock and cartoon parodying of "cowboy diplomacy", and it would be a teensy bit more complex. So is looking at water and saying "it's blue" without thinking of the issues of reflection and absorbing or scattering other light wavelengths leaving just blue. Even without those properties, water actually is blue... or green, depending on various other factors affecting the reflection like density... you still need the molecules to work together.

 

[Qonundrum]

Perhaps because TOS' 25th anniversary was afoot, and TNG ratings were down beforehand?

LOL.

Sadly, season 5 had the highest ratings* to that point - even before flaunting Spock in a tale waiting to be told, unifying two generations. Something that never ever happened again, *cough* "Generations". (and, yep,, I'd argue that "Unification", for all its dud moments, still did a better job at it.)

* By about a million or so, and if Wikipedia's figures and this observational supposition are correct. But they sure did go back down to season 4-levels afterward, which were still higher than season 1-3's! Fun side note here: Apparently "Aquiel" got higher ratings than "Relics", so there's a fun one one to think about right there... and yep, the lady and her goo dog being Geordi's latest wuv interest outdid the stunt return of Scotty (in an episode that's cringe at times, brilliant at others, and they beam through their own shields again but I digress). All that said, the series finale boosted ratings by several million - eclipsing even the "world premiere" of "Farpoint" (after which ratings dropped by a third, ouch, but quickly came back and that's pretty good for an allegedly crappy season, but I digress again) - undoubtedly seeing the return of some viewers who probably preferred the earlier seasons who balked after what the show morphed into, and I can't blame them. TNG is almost a tale of two halves... but I digress again.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Spock has a thing for uniting divided halves into wholes; it's what he's been doing his whole life.

 

[Doug Otte]

Why did Germany want to reunify, despite decades of separation?
Why was North Vietnam willing to sacrifice over 600,000 people to reunify with South, whether the south wanted it or not?
Why do they still talk about reunifying Korea, 70+ years after it split?

I don't agree with these examples. These countries are physically next to each other, were forcibly separated by external forces, and it was done recently enough that the citizens still share the same language, culture, and memory of the event.

Romulus was created thousands (5?) of years in the past by a voluntary exodus. They are separated by many light years. There was no memory of the event or the relationship. They have different languages and cultures.

For the same reasons nobody discussed allowing Kirk's two halves to remain separate entities in "The Enemy Within" (darn, now I'm kind of curious what an argument for that would sound like and who would make it)

1) Each half needs what the half has (willpower and passion, in Kirk's case; logic and emotion in Vulcan and Romulus's cases)

2) They used to be a single whole.

3) They'll perish without each other.

Bingo! I agree, Laura, except for point 3 in regard to Vulcan and Romulus. Can you explain? Thanks.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

More so after the planet's destruction, actually - they need the Vulcans' help to rebuild in the wake of the disaster. (Perhaps Vulcan's early destruction in the Kelvinverse will speed up the process there.)

IDIC, after all - and Romulan developments post split is part of I(nfinite).

 

[DonIago]

Perhaps the Romulans were simply jealous of the Klingons' catchphrase:
: It is a good day to die!
: It is a good day to unify!

 

[Oddish]

I don't agree with these examples. These countries are physically next to each other, were forcibly separated by external forces, and it was done recently enough that the citizens still share the same language, culture, and memory of the event.

Romulus was created thousands (5?) of years in the past by a voluntary exodus. They are separated by many light years. There was no memory of the event or the relationship. They have different languages and cultures.

Yes, but they're more or less the same species, which means that in the people's mind, ties between them exist.

Remember that in Vietnam, we lost fewer than 60,000 people, and our citizens were in the streets screaming for peace. Vietnamese losses, proportionally, were 45 times greater. They were up against an enemy with greater technology, including air superiority, and willingness to use weapons of terror (most notably napalm). Despite all this, they pressed relentlessly onward (that's why there's only one Vietnam now). That's the determination that a desire to reunify your people can create. So yes, even after thousands of years, I think it feasible that at least some Romulans and Vulcans would have their eye on reunifying their cultures.

Of course, for Sela and her faction, I see it as less of a gesture of unification and more of a plot to weaken their primary enemy, the Federation. And a rather ill-conceived one, given that it would certainly have ignited a full blown war. It would have been like the Soviet Union charging into West Germany, a NATO member, during the height of the Cold War.

 

[Mojochi]

If you adhere to the logic in the episode, Spock, in his aforementioned growing wisdom, has recognized that Romulans have already started down a path not unlike his ancestral Vulcans, in finding a way to curb their overpowering emotions, (Better late than never) and wanting to aid in that really benefits everyone.

Calling it reunification is just a label. What he really wants is to help brethren, in ways that maybe only he is capable of understanding & identifying with, having been a particularly unique outsider himself, with an outlier family, & who's been through quite a lot most Vulcans never experience, which has reshaped him in more abstract ways than most Vulcans, putting him in a rather special position to be of a uniquely unparalleled aid.

 

[Oddish]

"The reason for my coming here has never been more clear. The union of Vulcan and the Romulan people will not be achieved by politics or by diplomacy, but it will be achieved. The answer has been here before us all along. An inexorable evolution toward a Vulcan philosophy has already begun. Like the first Vulcans, these people are struggling to a new enlightenment. It may take decades, even centuries for them to reach it, but they will reach it. And I must help."
- Spock, "Unification, part II"

 

[Shawnster]

I don't agree with these examples. These countries are physically next to each other, were forcibly separated by external forces, and it was done recently enough that the citizens still share the same language, culture, and memory of the event.

Romulus was created thousands (5?) of years in the past by a voluntary exodus. They are separated by many light years. There was no memory of the event or the relationship. They have different languages and cultures.

In addition, these examples are pairing like with like. East and West Germany were both countries. So were Vietnam and the Koreas.

In contrast, Vulcan is a planet that is already a member state of a larger galactic government. The Romulan Star Empire, on the other hand, is a larger galactic government. They are not like with like. What would Unification look like? How would the two be unified? Would Vulcan leave the Federation and be absorbed by the Romulan Star Empire? Would the Romulans disband their government and become Federation members?

Wouldn't the best that could happen would be the normalization of relations between the Federation and the Romulans and an opening of the borders?

Just what was supposedly going to be unified?

 

[Mojochi]

Just what was supposedly going to be unified?

Philosophies.

Spock is engaged in a cultural healing. Does is make sense politically? Not really, which is what everyone, including his father, told him, & I'm sure he's smart enough to know that too. As you say, it doesn't even break down logistically. Did he even expect it to succeed fully? No. I really don't think he did. In fact, I suspect he was savvy enough to know the whole thing was somebody yanking his chain altogether.

He's not unfamiliar with Romulan tactics, but I think he expected the effort to be worth something in itself, because there are people there who believe, & he wanted to support them, whatever the cost or risk, and see that they got some kind of voice, so it wouldn't be crushed in obscurity. It's an exercise in virtue, for virtue's sake. I have to expect he might've considered he'd even be killed or imprisoned doing this.

It's not like he's trying to legitimately merge worlds with his actions here. It's just him, doing something by himself, merely because it's right and someone should, & there is honestly no one better suited to take up the cause. He doesn't truly expect anything from anybody except from himself, & those believers.