I've always wondered what was the purpose of the ban on Talos IV. The Talosians said humans were unsuited to their purposes,and wouldn't try to capture them again. Do you think Starfleet was that worried about humans learning the power of illusion? It doesn't seem like there is enough of a danger of going their to warrant being the only death penalty left on the books.
Why General Order 7?
- Thread starter The Boy Who Cried Worf
- Start date
This dialog helps clarify:
TALOSIAN: Your unsuitability has condemned the Talosian race to eventual death. Is this not sufficient?
MAGISTRATE: No other specimen has shown your adaptability. You were our last hope.
PIKE: But wouldn't some form of trade, mutual co-operation?
MAGISTRATE: Your race would learn our power of illusion and destroy itself too.
It looks like Starfleet concurs with "The Keeper's" assessment: we would destroy ourselves if we learned the power of illusion, so Talos IV was quarantined. If The Keeper is correct, destruction of the species would seem to be a sufficient reason to impose a death penalty.
Greg Schnitzer
Gaithersburg, Maryland
Also, Vina makes it clear in dialogue of the dangers of the Talosians power of illusion. She said something along the lines that they found out that it was a trap, like a narcotic, and that their addiction to illusion lead to the collapse of their society. Starfleet and civilian Federation authorities most likely saw the Talosians' power as a potential threat to civilization, and acted accordingly in implementing General Order 7. -- RR
So the danger of humans using the power of illusion to destroy themselves was the risk that warrants the death penalty? Okay, I'll buy that.
But then there are a whole lot of equally dangerous planets that should also merit the death penalty. Antos IV, where one can learn tricks like Garth of Izar. Or the planet of The Guardian of Forever. If Talos IV gets the death penalty, there should be others, too.
But then there are a whole lot of equally dangerous planets that should also merit the death penalty. Antos IV, where one can learn tricks like Garth of Izar. Or the planet of The Guardian of Forever. If Talos IV gets the death penalty, there should be others, too.
One thing that irked my about that was the death penalty. I don't believe a society could ever progress to the level as the Federation did and still have the death penalty. That is one reason why the United States continue to decay and Europe will grow stronger and progress more than the US will.
Regardless of the debate over capital punishment, it would seem that Starfleet was worried that even if/when the Talosian race were to die off, if someone managed to get to Talos IV and recover some of the dead Talosians' genetic material, and maybe harness it, it could be used as a weapon.
We know General Order 7 prohibits contacting Talos IV, but maybe the quarantine isn't limited to Talos. Maybe there are other worlds.
I would think that a Starfleet regulation with such drastic punishment threats is a little flimsy, though. You'd have to quarantine the planet (or planets) indefinitely. When does the quarantine lift? Maybe never; there's no way to tell. That's a pretty tall order, trying to discourage travel to a Class M planet forever. That's the real problem.
We know General Order 7 prohibits contacting Talos IV, but maybe the quarantine isn't limited to Talos. Maybe there are other worlds.
I would think that a Starfleet regulation with such drastic punishment threats is a little flimsy, though. You'd have to quarantine the planet (or planets) indefinitely. When does the quarantine lift? Maybe never; there's no way to tell. That's a pretty tall order, trying to discourage travel to a Class M planet forever. That's the real problem.
I always found this flimsy logic. The Talosians won't engage in trade and help because the humans would learn their powers of illusion...but they weren't worried about the same with the race of slaves they planned to raise? And seriously, if they have such power, they could make the visitors see whatever they wanted them to see.
Dumb da dumb dumb.
Dumb da dumb dumb.
The fear of learning their power is probably right, but I still don't think that is a really GOOD justification for the death penalty.I always envisioned the Talosians power as something they evolved over a period of time, and not really a trick that can be learned easily. Plus would Starfleet stop a private citizen from going to Talos IV?
Perhaps the death penalty is there as a scare tactic, much like nuclear weapons are supposed to be. He have them, but we won't use them unless it become absolutely nessecary, and we hope to god it doesn't become nessecary. The threat of death would definately be a good deturant to keep people away from Talos IV.
Well we seem to be equating "Starfleet" with "human." There are plenty more species than humans in the ranks.
Sir Rhosis
Sir Rhosis
I don't know that it is: I just finished watching "The Ultimate Computer" with my seven month old son. When Kirk is convincing the M-5 to allow itself to be destroyed, he tells it that it has murdered and asks it what the penalty is for murder.
M-5's response, after a dramatic pause with an equally dramatic musical sting? "Death."
The boy shit himself right after that, so maybe I missed something that came after.
Joe, Duuun, dunt-dun-dun-duuuuuun! Duuun, dunt-dun-dun-duuun ...
Well, Kirk is dealing with an insane person's insane mind within an insane computer. So he's probably just speaking the guy's lingo, rather than sticking to objective truth. (Or then GO7 was the only death penalty in Starfleet books, while the punishment for murder is countermurder in the civilian books.)
As for the rationale for GO7, I don't believe for a second that Starfleet would fear human stagnation as the result of them gaining mind powers. There's a far, far more obvious and tangible reason for the quarantine, one that in fact formed about half the plot of the episode "The Cage".
Namely, if anybody goes to Talos in a starship, that starship then becomes a Talosian starship. These guys are hostile, and they can control your mind. You sure as hell don't let yourself, or any of your friends or allies, go anywhere near them.
At Pike's return, if Starfleet could, they would no doubt have bombarded Talos VI till it glowed, then kept on bombarding until it no longer glowed. But they couldn't do that, because any bombardment fleet that goes to Talos becomes a Talosian bombardment fleet. So the second best thing they could do was quarantine the planet.
But they couldn't just slap a simple "quarantined" sign there, because that would merely lure in adventurers. And they bloody well couldn't put up a "quarantined due to presence of powers that allow control of universe" sign, because that would attract half the galaxy there in quest for those powers. So they had to hang one of those
"intruders will be shot, and that means you" signs instead, the sort that doesn't give or require any explanation.
Of course, once Pike returned there with Kirk, the sign became irrelevant. For one thing, it had been proven that the quarantine didn't stop the Talosians from luring people in. For another, this was the second time they were given the chance to conquer the universe, and they still failed to do it. So no doubt the death penalty was dropped as ineffective and irrelevant as soon as Kirk returned.
Timo Saloniemi
As for the rationale for GO7, I don't believe for a second that Starfleet would fear human stagnation as the result of them gaining mind powers. There's a far, far more obvious and tangible reason for the quarantine, one that in fact formed about half the plot of the episode "The Cage".
Namely, if anybody goes to Talos in a starship, that starship then becomes a Talosian starship. These guys are hostile, and they can control your mind. You sure as hell don't let yourself, or any of your friends or allies, go anywhere near them.
At Pike's return, if Starfleet could, they would no doubt have bombarded Talos VI till it glowed, then kept on bombarding until it no longer glowed. But they couldn't do that, because any bombardment fleet that goes to Talos becomes a Talosian bombardment fleet. So the second best thing they could do was quarantine the planet.
But they couldn't just slap a simple "quarantined" sign there, because that would merely lure in adventurers. And they bloody well couldn't put up a "quarantined due to presence of powers that allow control of universe" sign, because that would attract half the galaxy there in quest for those powers. So they had to hang one of those
"intruders will be shot, and that means you" signs instead, the sort that doesn't give or require any explanation.
Of course, once Pike returned there with Kirk, the sign became irrelevant. For one thing, it had been proven that the quarantine didn't stop the Talosians from luring people in. For another, this was the second time they were given the chance to conquer the universe, and they still failed to do it. So no doubt the death penalty was dropped as ineffective and irrelevant as soon as Kirk returned.
Timo Saloniemi
As an aside, there was a DC comic that showed the last adventure of the Enterprise's five-year mission was a return to Talos IV. Reason? The Klingons invaded, figuring if the planet is quarantined, what's bad for the Federation must be good for their Empire. So they figured out the power of illusion -- well, tortured it out of the Talosians, as I recall -- and used it on Kirk Co. -- RR
So what are we to make of Chekov's statement, two years later in "Turnabout Intruder," that executions were only permitted for violations of General Order 4? Was the death penalty still in place for visiting Talos IV and he just got his General Order citation wrong, or had Starfleet by that time dropped General Order 7 but instituted a new death penalty for violating GO4?
Don't put too much stock in anything Chekov said. This was just another case of him doing exactly what his Russian space hippie girlfriend told him to do -- be correct, occasionally.
Well, not this time, either.
I would certainly vote for the latter. GO7 in "The Menagerie" wasn't some longstanding historical holdover for capital punishment - it was a fairly recent addition, inspired by Pike's report. So it would seem a matter of routine for new death penalties to keep on emerging as old ones bowed out.
Also, no doubt both GO7 and GO4 are very general orders, as the name says. GO7 can't have dealt with Talos IV exclusively or specifically (since no doubt Starfleet GOs from 1 to 50 were already written long before anybody knew there existed a Talos IV), but more probably was some sort of a general rule about planetary quarantine, with Talos being the only relevant instance where the subclause about death penalty enforcement would apply in practice. Similarly, GO4 could be a general rule about officerlike conduct, with the death penalty recently added for the subclause of substance abuse: "If you even think about injecting yourself with kironide, your entire bloodline will be tortured to death and your pet goldfish slowly drowned!".
Timo Saloniemi
I guess someone at Starfleet forgot about this when they finally invented the holodeck.
Similar threads
