Why Did They Have the Two Wars on DS9?

[Dayton3]

First the war with the Klingons and then of course the Dominion War.

I ask this because I recall an interview with Rick Berman by Cinescape or some other genre magazine where Berman was asked about an actual war on Deep Space Nine.

I think this was in the third season of DS9.

Berman said flat out that he had "no interest in a war on Star Trek".

He said it would probably be "boring".

What changed his mind in less than a year?

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

Probably the ascendancy of better minds and writers like Ronald D. Moore, Ira Steven Behr and Robert Hewitt Wolfe.

 

[Jack Bauer]

The Klingon war was done at the request of Paramount. They wanted a shake up on the show. Originally the idea was Vulcan would leave the Federation (I forget why) then it was decided o bring a TNG character over to boost ratings. So Worf was picked and Vulcan was replaced by the Klingons dumping the Khitomer Accords.

As far as the Dominion war that was thought up by Behr and Piller in season 2. They planned on the Federation and the Dominion going to war in later seasons. I think it was supposed to happen earlier than it did but Paramount derailed it with the big shake up they demanded. The DS9 Companion is quite informative on this issue.

 

[Dayton3]

I remember one of the producers, Behr I think, saying that "we would've never had the Klingons become enemies if we knew we were going to have to welcome them back as allies just a year later"

So that does indeed indicate the "Federation/Klingon War" was something foisted on the producers by outside forces.

 

[TeutonicNights]

"I remember when we got into the Dominion War, Rick was adamant at first that the war would only take 3 or 4 episodes at the most, and we just said, "Sure!" We lied," he admits. "We just knew that once we got the ball rolling that we'd never wrap it up in 3 or 4 episodes, so that was just trickery. And then as the war went on, Rick would weigh in periodically about how heroic the characters are and "Why does this one have to be so depressing" and "This one's too violent...." And we're like, "It's a f***in' war! What do you mean it's too violent?"

"I remember one particularly insane argument that Ira and Rick had when Nog was injured and ended up losing a leg, there was this ridiculous extended argument that I was in a room while Ira was on the phone," Moore recalls. "We had written the draft where he had lost both his legs, and Rick was just appalled. "We can't lose the character's legs!" And we were like, "No, we've got to. We've got to have somebody who's injured in this war who's not just a guest star in the background." It was a very important point. And the argument got to the point where they were arguing about, "Well, does it have to be one leg or two? And is it above the knee or below the knee?" It was just, like, they were negotiating over where Nog was to lose his leg. It was just absurd."

http://liberalbydefinition.com/stor...02011&threadView=2&clickReply=1&submit=submit

 

[Solariabsg25]

Well, I never regarded the conflict with the Klingons as a "war".

Certainly there were major skirmishes and incidents, but nothing like a full-on, all out fight, with vast fleets clashing.

As to the conflict finishing rather quickly, I think it was simply that Gowron realised he had been duped by the true enemy, and fortunately Sisko was able to give him an out that saved a little face.

 

[Unicron]

I'm kind of the same way. I will admit I find the argument about Nog's leg amusing.

 

[Dayton3]

Well, I never regarded the conflict with the Klingons as a "war".

Certainly there were major skirmishes and incidents, but nothing like a full-on, all out fight, with vast fleets clashing.
.

What do you call "Way of the Warrior"?

At the very least dozens of Klingon ships destroyed by the Defiant and DS9 with thousands of Klingons killed.

At the very least, dozens of Starfleet and allied personnel killed.

That was a major battle by any standard.

And as was said earlier, Sisko said flat out in the Season Five premier,

"the Klingons are throwing everything they have at us".

And later in the 5th season

"Between the conflict with the Klingons and the Borg attack, Starfleet is stretched pretty thin".

Sounds by any standard like a major war.

If the Chinese next year threw "everything they had" at the United States, we would probably consider that a major war.

 

[TeutonicNights]

nt

 

[indranee]

short answer: the Klingons are boring as hell while the Cardie/Dominion bit was one of the best things Trek has ever come up with.

 

[aloha62]

As enemies the klingons are boring due to them being the 'rivals' for so many decades, the dominion war was made interesting by the dynamic of the federation and the klingons teaming up. if it wasn't for that i don't think i would have really cared.

In many ways i was hoping for a series final that was in effect a TV movie showing the main races (fed/king/rom) forging a alliance to fight off a foe (dominion or borg) to bring this generation to a conclusion and allow some time before starting a new series with a new scenario.

sadly we were left with a really odd moment of the klingons deciding to ally despite only being at war a year before and the generation being finished by a batch of poor TNG movies.

you have to admit there is something that feels good about seeing a bird of prey decloak and defending a federation ship.

 

[Navaros]

I believe I had read comments from showrunners to the effect that they had to shoehorn the Klingon War in because Berman wanted that instead of the Dominion War. Then eventually they ended up going with the Dominion War as best they could despite Berman hating it.

 

[Solariabsg25]

Well, I never regarded the conflict with the Klingons as a "war".

Certainly there were major skirmishes and incidents, but nothing like a full-on, all out fight, with vast fleets clashing.
.

What do you call "Way of the Warrior"?

At the very least dozens of Klingon ships destroyed by the Defiant and DS9 with thousands of Klingons killed.

At the very least, dozens of Starfleet and allied personnel killed.

That was a major battle by any standard.

And as was said earlier, Sisko said flat out in the Season Five premier,

"the Klingons are throwing everything they have at us".

And later in the 5th season

"Between the conflict with the Klingons and the Borg attack, Starfleet is stretched pretty thin".

Sounds by any standard like a major war.

If the Chinese next year threw "everything they had" at the United States, we would probably consider that a major war.

Yes, but did we hear of any other battles of this intensity between the Federation and the Klingons?

The fact is it was a conflict, not an all-out war. We certainly did not see the high-intensity battles that marked the Dominion War, it was more of going back to the old days of TOS. With Klingon raids on outposts, attacks on ships, but no full-scale "fleets across the border" stuff.

Starfleet was stretched thin because they suddenly had to start extensively patrolling the Klingon Border again to stop incursions and defend Federation territory from prowling Klingon ships.

It also appears that at this time the Cardassians were the Klingon's main interest.

 

[Dayton3]

The fact is it was a conflict, not an all-out war. We certainly did not see the high-intensity battles that marked the Dominion War, it was more of going back to the old days of TOS. With Klingon raids on outposts, attacks on ships, but no full-scale "fleets across the border" stuff.

Sisko "The Klingons are throwing everything they have at us".

What part of that is so hard to understand?

I doubt Sisko would say that if all the Klingons were doing was raiding a few outposts and skirmishing with lone starships here and there.

 

[TeutonicNights]

it was an all-out war, it just happened off screen.
Anyway I think "Nor the battle..." proved the Klingons are an effective enemy
Especially because we have known them as mostly harmless dudes wandering the Promenade and being funny people for so long.
The scene in Apocalypse Rising with Klingons bragging about brutally killing Starfleet guys was especially powerful.

 

[Solariabsg25]

The fact is it was a conflict, not an all-out war. We certainly did not see the high-intensity battles that marked the Dominion War, it was more of going back to the old days of TOS. With Klingon raids on outposts, attacks on ships, but no full-scale "fleets across the border" stuff.

Sisko "The Klingons are throwing everything they have at us".

What part of that is so hard to understand?

I doubt Sisko would say that if all the Klingons were doing was raiding a few outposts and skirmishing with lone starships here and there.

Oh I suppose as hard as this is to understand from Memory Alpha...

"The battle at Deep Space 9 ended indecisively, as even though the Klingons had failed to capture Deep Space 9 or the Detapa Council, their offensive against the Cardassians continued. After the battle the Detapa Council was safely returned to Cardassia Prime, though their rule would be short. Less than two years later, the devastating war with Klingons would lead Dukat into delivering the Cardassians into the hands of an even more oppressive power than the Central Command. For the Federation, an all-out war with the Klingons had been averted, but the alliance that had unified the two powers in friendship for decades was lost. The ensuing Federation-Klingon conflict would end with a cease-fire a year later, after Martok was exposed as a changeling, but not before a string of largely pointless skirmishes had been fought along their border. Beginning with the Battle of Deep Space 9, the Founders had nearly succeeded in their goal of irreparably destroying the Klingon-Federation alliance, the only power which could have stood against a Dominion invasion. Fortunately for the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, the two powers were able to reconcile in time, but not until after the loss of a great many lives."

 

[Dayton3]

Memory Alpha is a persons idea of what "really happened" in Star Trek.

It isn't considered canonical by any measure.

Their opinion means no more than mine.

 

[Solariabsg25]

Well one thing I do agree with you on is it is one person's opinion.

However, I also base my opinion on "Rules of Engagement", where Cho'Pok confirms that the Klingons and the Federation are not "formal friends or formal enemies" - an odd confirmation if at a full-blown war, also why would the Klingon's would hope to stop the Federation escorting Cardassian convoys, because if formally at war then Starfleet would simply have a "screw you" attitude.

The question is though, did the makers at the time of "Way of the Warrior" actually intend it to be a full-blown war then back out at the last moment? Certainly I agree with the Klingon casualties at DS9 and the Klingon sense of vengeance, it seems hard to imagine them backing off from launching an all-out conflict.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Klingon War was precipitated by Dominion dirty tricks. It made sense that the Dominion would try an underhanded strategem before moving on to more overt tactics, and that once the source of the conflict had been uncovered, the Klingons would switch allegiences. Even though the two-phase war was created by pressures external to the plotline, it cohered pretty well.

But we do have to infer a lot of off-screen action. For instance, most of the Dukat-the-insurgent plotline with him attacking the Klingons and then falling for a Dominion alliance as a means back to power was never shown, yet it's absolutely crucial to the overall story.

 

[jimbtnp2]

Well, I never regarded the conflict with the Klingons as a "war".

Certainly there were major skirmishes and incidents, but nothing like a full-on, all out fight, with vast fleets clashing.
.

What do you call "Way of the Warrior"?

At the very least dozens of Klingon ships destroyed by the Defiant and DS9 with thousands of Klingons killed.

At the very least, dozens of Starfleet and allied personnel killed.

That was a major battle by any standard.

And as was said earlier, Sisko said flat out in the Season Five premier,

"the Klingons are throwing everything they have at us".

And later in the 5th season

"Between the conflict with the Klingons and the Borg attack, Starfleet is stretched pretty thin".

Sounds by any standard like a major war.

If the Chinese next year threw "everything they had" at the United States, we would probably consider that a major war.

Yeah but it would likely last only a few 'episodes' as I'm sure the chinese would stop selling us what we need to fight them..