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Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ...

suarezguy

Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
But Brand New Day wasn't so well-received?

Isn't the theory behind reboots that the former continuity was too complicated, boggled down, and a radical "return to the basics" was needed?

Isn't that somewhat the reasoning behind BND, that an unmarried (implicitly, younger acting) Parker made a better character, was more accessible?

Is it just that Mary Jane was more popular with the fans than the Star Trek spin-offs or Brosnan Bond movies were?
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

So, what the phlox is "Brand New Day"? Comic book? If so, I doubt that comparing it to movies is at all relevant.
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

Because it wasn't a reboot. It was Quesada power-tripping, per usual, and getting rid of all the stuff he hates(Pete/MJ Marriage, Grown Up Pete, Lee and Kirby's vision) and more or less keeping all the stuff he loved(Gwen The Goblin Fucker). He was doing what he always does: Phase out Lee and Kirby and put his own mark on the book. He did it with Captain America, Iron Man, The Avengers, and The X-Men. And he tried to do it here, but it wasn't as well received because Spidey fans aren't as dumb as the rest of Marvel's fandom.

And yes, comparing movies to comics is not a good comparison.
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

But Brand New Day wasn't so well-received?

Isn't the theory behind reboots that the former continuity was too complicated, boggled down, and a radical "return to the basics" was needed?

Isn't that somewhat the reasoning behind BND, that an unmarried (implicitly, younger acting) Parker made a better character, was more accessible?


There's no single theory behind reboots. After all, it's not as if James Bond had a complicated continuity bogging it down; they kept recasting the actors and never mentioning it, so continuity clearly wasn't a priority.

The problems with Brand New Day were severalfold. One, not everyone agreed that returning Peter to an unmarried state was desirable. Personally, as someone who's not only read but written Spider-Man fiction set during his marriage, I think it was a vital and worthwhile part of his story and shouldn't have been eliminated.

Two, the way it was done was awkward. They were trying to have it both ways, both change Peter's past yet keep it all the same so they didn't have to rewrite all of Marvel continuity, so they concocted this messy halfway thing where his past really did happen but nobody remembers it except for the parts they do remember, and it's all very sloppy and confusing. The problem is that it wasn't a reboot in the sense you're talking about -- not a restart of the universe, just a reshuffling of elements of it within the context of a larger Marvel Universe that remained unchanged. And that was just a mess.

Three -- and this is the big one -- they had Peter effectively make a deal with the Devil to save Aunt May. Marvel's flagship character, their greatest hero and champion of good, made a bargain with the embodiment of cosmic evil for personal reasons. Many people see that as an unforgivable act of character assassination. Worse, the professed reason for doing it this way was because the editor-in-chief thought it would make Spidey a bad role model if he got divorced. :wtf: What the hell?! Divorce makes you a bad role model but dealing with Satan is okay? That's just dumb.

I would add, though this is just my own view and not one I've heard widely expressed, that it was a terrible mistake to erase everyone's knowledge of Spidey's identity, including Aunt May's. Letting May in on Spidey's secret was the best thing that was done with that character in, well, just about ever. She made a marvelous confidante for Peter and was far more fun and interesting as someone who was uncomfortable with his life as Spider-Man but strove to support and encourage him than she ever was as the clueless old lady who had to be lied to all the time. And just in general, I think the whole "I can't let my loved ones know my secret" thing is limiting and cliched. The loved ones' stories are always more interesting when they're in the loop than when they're kept in the dark.

So not only was BND badly handled, but in many people's view, it wasn't necessary. It was a "fix" for something that only some people felt needed to be fixed, and it was done in a really, really bad way. Even the guy who wrote the story, J. Michael Straczynski, has made it pretty clear that he didn't want to do it, that he didn't agree with what his editor wanted him to do.
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

JMS wrote "One More Day", not "Brand New Day" which is the moniker for the continuity post-OMD. While OMD was really stupid, I have learned to let it go and accept the status quo and I have really been enjoying the title more than I have in years. The supporting cast has expanded quite a bit and has been really enjoyable. I like having Harry back as I think that he is essential to the Peter/Osborn dynamic. And the Chameleon is the best he has ever been.
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

^Sorry, yes. Easy to get them mixed up.
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

But Brand New Day wasn't so well-received?

Isn't the theory behind reboots that the former continuity was too complicated, boggled down, and a radical "return to the basics" was needed?

Isn't that somewhat the reasoning behind BND, that an unmarried (implicitly, younger acting) Parker made a better character, was more accessible?

Is it just that Mary Jane was more popular with the fans than the Star Trek spin-offs or Brosnan Bond movies were?

Not at all. It's the fact that comic books these days have such a much smaller core audience that they really take possession of the product. Therefore, if a reboot or whatever doesn't meet to this small group of people's liking, then the powers that be hear it in spades. And in an industry where 1000 fewer sales of a comic book actually make an impact on the bottom line and can determine if a comic lives or dies, it means something.

On the other hand, Trek and Bond are huge franchises with millions, not thousands, of fans. Yes, if they reject a reboot, then that can be a problem. But if it succeeds, it's a huge deal.

Also, again perhaps this is due to comics having so many fewer devoted followers than they used to, I don't recall hearing people clamoring for a reboot of Spider-Man, as opposed to the many who wanted Trek to either be rebooted, retired, or bequeathed to the fans to do with what they wished after years of diminishing returns on TV and in film, and to the many who felt the Bond films reached some sort of reality tipping point with Die Another Day and the studio saved the franchise by rebooting. So with the whole Brand New Day thing (and the fact I'm yet another contributor to this thread who has no idea, really, what that is beyond it being Spidey-related) the sense I get is something was fixed that wasn't broken, and that's always a bad move.

One other thing that needs to be mentioned. I get the feeling people are of the opinion Brand New Day sucks. I have no opinion, and have read no reviews, but that's the feeling I get from this thread and other discussions. On the other hand, Daniel Craig's Casino Royale was the most critically acclaimed Bond in 40 years - complete with calls for Oscar nominations for Best Picture and Best actor, while the Star Trek reboot -- to hell with the bashers -- received the most critical acclaim of any of the Trek films. Do the math as far as why these reboots were better received.

Alex
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

I really hated One More Day, but I've grudgingly come to accept the new take on Spidey.

I liked the attempt at least to create some new and unique villians for Spider-Man. I also like what they are doing with JJJ. And I enjoyed the Character Assassination and American Son arcs.
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

Getting rid of MJ and selling his soul to the devil was an absolutely horrible editorial move that just totally destroys everything the character stands for. That said, I've gotten a few of the new trades and have found them extremely enjoyable (New Ways to Die, Election Day, BND 1 and 3). They really feel like quintessential Spidey stories and the JRJR art is absolutely gorgeous and Spidey is FUNNY!
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

One other thing that needs to be mentioned. I get the feeling people are of the opinion Brand New Day sucks. I have no opinion, and have read no reviews, but that's the feeling I get from this thread and other discussions.

Well, to follow up on TheBrew's clarification, the main vitriol is directed at "One More Day," the storyline that changed the status quo. "Brand New Day" is the blanket title for the first few months of stories set in the new status quo, and while reactions have been mixed, it doesn't draw the same level of hatred as OMD itself.
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

The Star Trek reboot wasn't handled in such a way that made me feel like a jackass for watching Star Trek the past 20 years. The Star Trek reboot felt like a Valentine to me as a fan, that Trek was trying to bring some new fans into the fold but didn't want to lose my attention. The Spider-Man reboot made a point of letting me know the Peter Parker I'd read about since I was a kid was a buffoon who would make a deal with the Devil to save his 80 year old Aunt at the price of his marriage - How furious would Aunt May be if she knew that?
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

^^ I think this speaks to a very unhealthy relationship with his elderly aunt. I've actually wondered about that, I'm reading 70s B&W Essential trades and he keeps visiting May and kissing her on the cheek and calling her "sexy lady" or something like that... it's a little creepy! :D
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

The Star Trek reboot wasn't handled in such a way that made me feel like a jackass for watching Star Trek the past 20 years. The Star Trek reboot felt like a Valentine to me as a fan, that Trek was trying to bring some new fans into the fold but didn't want to lose my attention. The Spider-Man reboot made a point of letting me know the Peter Parker I'd read about since I was a kid was a buffoon who would make a deal with the Devil to save his 80 year old Aunt at the price of his marriage - How furious would Aunt May be if she knew that?

Aunt May, "Thank you Peter. Mary Jane was a skank anyway. What ever happened to Gwen? She was a nice girl."
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

The problem is that it wasn't a reboot in the sense you're talking about -- not a restart of the universe, just a reshuffling of elements of it within the context of a larger Marvel Universe that remained unchanged. And that was just a mess.

Note that the ACTUAL Spidey reboot, "Ultimate Spider-Man" was really popular and well received, although I should point out that I'm about three years behind the times so I've no idea if people still like it.
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

It was possibly the ONLY Ultimate title that was still readable before Ultimatum.
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

The problem is that it wasn't a reboot in the sense you're talking about -- not a restart of the universe, just a reshuffling of elements of it within the context of a larger Marvel Universe that remained unchanged. And that was just a mess.

Note that the ACTUAL Spidey reboot, "Ultimate Spider-Man" was really popular and well received, although I should point out that I'm about three years behind the times so I've no idea if people still like it.

If Ult Spidey had REPLACED 616 Spidey, it would be a reboot. As is, it's an AU.

Is Bond "rebooted" at each actor change? I thought all the Bond's before Craig's "Casino Royale" were one loose continuity...

It was possibly the ONLY Ultimate title that was still readable before Ultimatum.

It was the only Ult title readable PERIOD (as in from the beginning), and only because it mostly stayed far far away from the craptacular dystopianism of Ultimates, et al...
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

Would every new Spidey cartoon count as a reboot of the cartoons themselves? Aside from the Fox Spider-Man/Spider-Man Unlimited shows, each show was a different retelling of the mythos. Or am I just giving this too much thought?

It's a sincere question, I assure you :) Spidey's had at least one cartoon for each decade since the 60s.
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

So, what the phlox is "Brand New Day"? Comic book? If so, I doubt that comparing it to movies is at all relevant.

/thread

I love it when stupid threads get crushed :techman:
 
Re: Why are reboots (ST, Bond) anticipated, generally well-recieved ..

Is Bond "rebooted" at each actor change? I thought all the Bond's before Craig's "Casino Royale" were one loose continuity...

"Reboot" in this context is a slang term and has no precise definition, but a recasting alone doesn't count by any definition.

In fan terms, where "reboot" is used to mean "continuity reset" or "new reality," the Craig Bond films qualify because they go back to the beginning of Bond's career. In industry terms, where the term "reboot" has little to do with continuity and is more about taking a moribund or failing franchise and making it fresh and profitable again or revamping it for a new and broader audience (or at least attempting to), the Craig films qualify because they throw aside the old formula and baggage of the series and give Bond a fresh start.




Would every new Spidey cartoon count as a reboot of the cartoons themselves? Aside from the Fox Spider-Man/Spider-Man Unlimited shows, each show was a different retelling of the mythos. Or am I just giving this too much thought?

It's a sincere question, I assure you :) Spidey's had at least one cartoon for each decade since the 60s.

You're giving it too much thought. A new adaptation is just a new adaptation. In either its fan usage or its industry usage, I think the term "reboot" only applies if it's the core series itself that's being restarted. The various animated series are just interpretations of the comic series, which has continued throughout.

And as stated, BND doesn't really count as a reboot, because the overall universe it's part of is unchanged. The continuity is still essentially the same, it's just that the characters have been made to forget parts of their past. And I fully expect that sometime a few years down the road, once the current powers-that-be at Marvel have moved on, things are going to be changed back. Changes in comics are rarely permanent, and eventually nostalgia wins out over novelty. That's what drove this change in the first place -- nostalgia for Peter's single days. But in a decade or so, Spidey comics will end up under the creative control of people who grew up with a married Peter, and they'll be nostalgic for that and will bring it back.

The only thing in Spidey history I'd call a "reboot" was the abortive 1998-9 event where Marvel decided to revamp Spidey's origins in a new John Byrne miniseries. They restarted the numbering of Amazing Spider-Man with "Volume 2," and the background of the "present-day" stories was changed to fit the new continuity. There was no supernatural reality shift used to justify it, they merely started pretending this was what Spidey's true origin had been all along. But it bombed, and the new continuity was quickly and quietly swept under the rug, with the comics returning to the old continuity and origin and pretending that the retcon had never happened. Eventually the Volume 2 numbering was dropped and the comics went back to the numbering they would've had if they'd never been reset; after ASM V. 1 #441, we had V. 2 #1-58, and the next issue after that was V. 1 #500. But this was long after the Byrne retcon had been abandoned.
 
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