Who prefers Archer/T'Pol?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by Agenda, Jun 12, 2010.

  1. Artemis

    Artemis Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Ditto! That's what I was trying to ask in my first post here...but people are obviously still in a postwar mood.
     
  2. Vincent Law

    Vincent Law Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    But where was this chemistry? Where are some examples of it and why do you feel these are good examples of it?

    From your example of "A Night in Sickbay," I honestly never saw anything between them in that episode that wasn't completely one-sided, and even then it seemed forced, more for comedy relief and an excuse to throw in some fan service.

    This seems to be an unfortunate commonality among fans for any given show or genre. Even with anime, which are cartoons, there seem to be these "shipper wars." For me it is simply a matter of what is in the show, and something which can be discussed about any given show. If someone can identify examples of something, that is always more interesting than making generalized statements about which actors may or may not have had chemistry and which characters may or may not have had potential.
     
  3. TripTucker2012

    TripTucker2012 Lieutenant Junior Grade

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    Sorry guys but I guess I'm a purist. Trip and T'Pol all the way! :luvlove:
     
  4. bluedana

    bluedana Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't think there's sexual chemistry or even romantic. But I do see loads of "I have your back," which is more profound. One of my favorite bits is in First Flight, where Archer just wants to take off and be alone to grieve Robinson's death. T'Pol talks her way onto the shuttle, then proceeds to be the sounding board for Archer's memories. It's a gentle, sweet relationship shown there. She isn't quite sure how to comfort him, but gets it right just by being herself. I think anyone else would have gotten chewed out by Archer; rather, he completely opens up to her.

    Another instance, for me, is in the one with Ambassador V'Lar (sorry, it's late). Archer reverses his decision and the ship's course just because T'Pol asks him to. That exchange demonstrates the level of trust and regard between the two of them, and is a huge step from where they started in Broken Bow.
     
  5. commodore64

    commodore64 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I thought there was chemistry and thought it added up to something steamy. What was steamy? People caring about each other and giving their lives to each other in a command situation. I like feelings. :)

    When was there people caring about each other - giving up their lives?
    - Twilight when Archer saves T'Pol by pushing her out of the way of the anomaly and then she gives up her live to help him
    - When T'Pol was about to be kicked off Enterprise in Shadows of P'Jem and Archer fought for her
    - When Tolaris attempted to take advantage of T'Pol and Archer dropped by to discuss it with her (and make sure she was okay)
    - In The Communicator when T'Pol comes at the last minute to get Malcolm and Archer out of a jam
    - In The Seventh when T'Pol asks Archer for his help and he helps her as well as works through her issues with her
    - In The Fallen when Archer helps V'Lar because of T'Pol's request
    - When Archer agrees to help T'Pol in The Forge and she sticks by him though something is seriously wrong with him
    - In the Andorian arc when Archer says he's going to battle Shran and she tries to talk him out of it
    - In Impulse when Archer saves T'Pol from being a Vulcan-zombie
    - In Azati Prime when T'Pol tries to talk Archer out of sacrificing himself
    - In Damage when Archer wonders what's happening with T'Pol and checks in on her and then calls her on it

    I don't need to go on.

    On sexual chemistry, I personally think it's there and some of it is based on them caring so much about each other. I haven't witnessed situations between men and women who constantly offer self-sacrifice to help the other without their being something more.
     
  6. Vincent Law

    Vincent Law Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    What makes it sexual chemistry, though? Simply the fact that they are different genders? If the two of them had been the same gender, I doubt anyone would have seen any more than two comrades looking out for each other.

    Admittedly, this is putting aside that the writing never really convinced me that Archer and T'Pol had reason to trust in each other the way they they were apparently supposed to for some of the episodes. There was no build up to it, they were just suddenly supposed to trust each other. But now I appear to have wandered off on a tangent. ;)
     
  7. Mach5

    Mach5 Admiral Admiral

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    Bingo. I personally saw A LOT more non-platonic chemistry between Bashir and O'Brien, then between A/T.

    And I'm not even saying those two were latent homosexuals, but only that they've shown some genuine feelings for one another. Feelings that developed over time, and this all happened on-screen, meaning WE saw it grow and no one can dispute it.

    A/T, however, is an eternal matter of controversy. I saw friendship between the two, but it never got intimate (and by "intimate" I don't mean "romantic"), and I found that very disappointing.

    Especially when T'Pol returned from Vulcan a married woman. We didn't even see Archer put a hand on her shoulder, give her a sympathetic eye and ask: "T'Pol, are you alright?"

    Sure, one can argue that he only respected her privacy, but true friendship is supposed to breach such privacy from time to time.
     
  8. HopefulRomantic

    HopefulRomantic hyperpolypyroferricist redux Moderator

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    Apparently you haven't seen any of the droves of Kirk/Spock romance fanfiction. ;)

    I think "chemistry" is in the eye of the beholder. The examples of bluedana and commodore64 upthread illustrate what they and others (me too) saw as friendship, caring, trust, and/or romantic spark or the potential for it.

    A couple more examples: the scene at the end of "Shockwave II," when Archer wakes T'Pol in the middle of the night to thank her for her help keeping Enterprise from being recalled -- his "I think you put it over the top" says far more than the words alone. And "Singularity," when T'Pol finds a way to drag Archer out of his obsessed stupor to help save the ship.

    For romantic-sparky moments, there are a few instances that are classic to the romance genre -- Archer offering to share his blanket with T'Pol in "Andorian Incident," or sweeping her into his arms and carrying her away in "Shadows of P'Jem" after she's been shot, or T'Pol weeping over Archer's imminent demise in "Azati Prime." The romantic subtext isn't played up at all; it's left to the viewer to read into it (or not) what they wish.

    Even if you don't see chemistry, Archer demonstrates his loyalty to her in situations like "Fusion" (confronting Tolaris) and "P'Jem" (fighting to keep her on Enterprise, even when she isn't fighting to stay herself). And T'Pol is very protective of Archer in the Vulcan arc and the Andorian arc.

    I saw initial conflict and mistrust from both of them, which slowly (through scenes mentioned above) developed into respect for each other as co-workers, then friendship and trust. Even as they were beginning to find common ground, Archer's exuberance would sometimes override T'Pol's pragmatism, sure. But I think one of the show's themes was Archer's maturity from idealistic explorer to seasoned leader, and the mistakes he made along the way that helped him to grow. Their acceptance and friendship seemed to me to be a microcosm for the larger theme of the evolving human/Vulcan partnership over the course of the series.
     
  9. TiberiusMaximus

    TiberiusMaximus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    You got it, Hopeful. There were moments between them, but many of them can be seen as ambiguous...so there's not really a 'yes it did happen' or a 'no it didn't happen'. It COULD have happened, and there were definite suggestions to that effect. :)

    I must admit, however, that the largest reason for me to ship Archer and T'Pol is so Trip/Hoshi makes more sense. :)
     
  10. commodore64

    commodore64 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Nice av! I think Trip/Hoshi makes sense. I liked their dynamic in Observer Effect.

    I think HR's got it: what adds up to one person on sexual chemistry or chemistry at all, doesn't mean a hill of beans to someone else. I saw absolutely no sexual chemistry in Trip/T'Pol, which is why to me the relationship felt forced. Eye of the beholder probably sums it up pretty well.
     
  11. Vincent Law

    Vincent Law Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I have heard of all manner of slash fic. In fact, you should take a look at this article. However, just because people decide to write their own fan fiction doesn't mean something was in the show, and that's what matters to me. As for the examples that I've seen listed so far, it is much in line with what I remember from watching the series as it aired, which is to say that what was in the show felt forced between those characters, and at times could be cringe-worthy. The scene where Archer goes into T'Pol's quarters in the middle of the night would definitely count as cringe-worthy, mostly because of how childish Archer acted and the actual subject of discussion. I also can't think of any instance with the actors having any real chemistry together the way Mr. Trinneer and Ms. Blalock had from pretty much their first scene together. They simply played well off of each other, and their scenes together tended to be a bit better, though there were times that the romance between them also seemed forced.

    As for Trip/Hoshi, I would direct your attention to this article.
     
  12. HopefulRomantic

    HopefulRomantic hyperpolypyroferricist redux Moderator

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    Wow, talk about eye of the beholder! LOL. I loved that scene, thought it had great subtext and humor. But that's just me. :)
     
  13. Vincent Law

    Vincent Law Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    As the saying goes, "your mileage may vary." ;)
     
  14. TiberiusMaximus

    TiberiusMaximus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    ^Yep...YMMV indeed. That's a good thought about Trip/Hoshi, they also make good friends/'siblings'. Personally I think it would be more but, again, YMMV. Also, you said what matters to you is what happens in the show...I'm more concerned with what COULD have happened. Just a different way of looking at things.

    May I say, though, that I'm impressed that you're handling this topic so civilly? A lot of people just go full-on shipper war mode when someone disagrees with them. So it's a nice change to talk about it politely. :)

    Thanks, Commodore! Trip/Hoshi has always been my favorite ship, not just for ENT but in general too. Glad you like the av, too. Trip/T'Pol always felt forced to me...at least the romantic/attraction part of it. Their 'banter'/teasing has it's funny moments, but I don't think it should have grown into anything else. The personalities are just too different. Now, opposites attract, but still...just didn't work for me.

    There are a lot of Archer/Hoshi fics out there...now THAT is forced. That's where I see more Big Brother Instinct than Trip/Hoshi.
     
  15. Vincent Law

    Vincent Law Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    It seems most of the people in here have been fairly civil, which is always a good thing. For my part, I am not overly attached to particular couples, or indeed even to this series. I actually much prefer Deep Space Nine, though there were aspects of Enterprise which interested me. This is actually where "what could have been" comes into play for me, because my this series had such good potential.

    Getting back on track, the thing to keep in mind about discussions like this is that in the end, it is just a show, and these are simply characters in it. I don't say that to offend or to talk down to anyone, simply to point out that discussion about a show one likes should be enjoyable. It is definitely possible to criticize without getting angry. Getting angry about a show or someone else's opinion of it is such a waste, even if I can understand the passion which might be behind such anger.
     
  16. Anji

    Anji Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not sure where this thread is going, but I'd like to be counted among those who thought Archer and T'Pol was better a combination. There are a number of obstacles they would have to overcome with the biggest one being his emotionality and her stolid logic.

    There also seemed to be a mutual respect between the actors that showed through which is what I think everyone is picking up on. I'm surprised that the producers did not.
     
  17. commodore64

    commodore64 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Agree on all of the above. :) I think the thing about Archer/Hoshi that's weird is he solicits her help and treats her almost like ... a daughter. He's protective of her in that way, etc.

    I think the writers (Sussman) did a nice job of the mirror episodes of displaying things that would never happen and making it work, like Archer/Hoshi. And I was glad to see her poison him. Empress Hoshi!

    And yet again, whatever floats boats, I suppose works. I feel satisfied at the end of the day and I suppose that's all that matters to me personally.