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White self-hatred.... it's impact on mixed race people and families?

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INACTIVERedDwarf

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Red Shirt
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In Britain it's common for edgy comedians or political commentators to say stuff like 'whites are responsible for the world's problems'. See Sara Pascoe's comments on 'gammon' in the video; I like her, yet I find that stuff about her feeling guilty startlingly short sighted. I'm getting a bit fed up of this type of self-hate, especially because as a mixed race person, I find it incredible that language which would is openly racist if used against one half of my ethnic background, is used openly against the other half of my background; so I'm in the weird position where people are being openly racist against my identity, and I am an ethnic minority, and it's seen as perfectly fine by the intelligentsia, because in their rush to bandwagon on the 'evil whitey' rhetoric, they have forgotten some of their cherished adopted constituency of minorities have white mothers or fathers. As constructed racial categories break down, perhaps a lot of people are going to find they are on the wrong side of history in perpetrating this narrative?

"Raising a White Child as a Black Parent in an Age of White Guilt Hysteria"

The Arab Slave Trade, the imperialism of Persia, Arabia, Egypt, Assyria, Turkey, Mongolia, Central Asia, Japan and China, the bloody ethnic cleansing of Hindus, the destruction of Buddhist schools, the persecution of Eastern Christians, the execution of atheists, the oppression of minorities like the Hmong, the caste system of Japan or India... I know my history, and no part of the world has a monopoly on evil. The European peoples, themselves actually many distinct peoples some of who had nothing to do with the USA's race history, are not the unique cause of the world's problems. As Jawaharlal Nehru noted in "Glipses of World History", Europe was often a colony of Asia, so how can it be the origin of colonialism?

People in the west who are proponents of this white guilt attitude tend to underestimate the progress, goodwill and honesty of the west and it's institutions, which are remarkable in world history, instead fixating on the bad examples, like transatlantic slavery, CIA interference in South America, or the USA's history of race relations. In many countries, the kind of criticism that scientists, scholars, politicians and journalists place themselves under in America or Britain is often non-existent, or heavily contingent on the goodwill of religious bigots or other biased parties. The Arab world has never come to terms with it's history of African slavery as far as I know, but is never called out on it in documentaries of world history, nor has Pakistan come to terms with the massacres that established it's state religion of Islam in South Asia, while Cortez's conquest of the Aztecs are emblazoned in every BBC Documentary on civilization. In a functioning democracy all institutions reinforce one another and keep discourse honest; teaching critical thinking, the facts of science, sceptical history, sceptical journalism, and personal responsibility for truth. British history books, or documentaries, deals with English involvement in colonialism, but in British classrooms of a dozen ethnicities, perhaps teaching only white history is no longer good enough.

Isn't it better not hate any other human? Does one need to self-hate or is that ultimately just as evil and reactionary? I was raised to simply be good to others, not to divisively pin my colours on some identity, and set it in opposition to another, but the west currently seems obsessed with fractious/divisive ideologies regarding race and gender. I wonder how much of that will result in one group projecting it's Jungian shadow on another? Can't rights be won without demonizing another?

Speaking as a half asian man, I think citizens of the west should be a bit more proud of their civilization, and regain a sense of their progressive mission. I would rather live in the democratic culture that gave rise to Star Trek, Star Wars and JRR Tolkien than one where books are burned, and history dynamited. The west seems to me, to be more genuinely post-racial and pan-human than any other time in world history.
 
Oh dear, you're posting a very touch subject? When you're aware of concepts of privilege, you'll know there's no such thing as racism against white people, just like there's no such thing as sexism against males. You have to have oppression by a ruling class, always pressing downward to keep people beneath you, it's institutionalized, right? I really do hope a discussion here about such a sensitive topic will be able to remain civil? My feeling though is I recommend you probably really need to do a lot of research about privilege?

Oh white guilt (and male guilt) is so absolutely necessary right now, because of historical oppression of minorities and women, and it's still going on today, so your dominant class totally needs to realize what it's done and figure out how to even things out, and you know there's still such a very long way to go, right? Oh it's totally not at all about self hate, it's about recognizing how white (males) are still dominating in so very many ways.

I don't feel at all comparing sins of other cultures is in any way relevant? I mean, you've got to work on your own problems, right? I feel it's like saying "My neighbor killed his wife, but I'm okay because I'm only beating mine", if I'm making sense?
 
A bad situation you find yourself in, RedDwarf. Sortof sitting between all chairs.

From the pov of a biologist, i.e. based on genetics, human "races" are in fact no races at all, only local variations - adaptations to particular climatical situations.
Personally, I very strongly reject the concept of races. People are people, that's all. What does it matter what colour one has on the outside? Inside everyone is the same.
Unfortunately, only few people share my opinion that racism of any kind is utter b.. err.. male cattle digestional products.

Now, if not a race, is there any country or people to blame more than an other? The answer obviousely depends on whether one considers oneself a vicim or a winner. Nevertheless, it seems to me that here as well, every individual is to be viewed as a case in its own right. Everyone would at a first impulse agree that seeing an injustice and not standing up against it is codemnable. Yet, if you come to think about it, there might be circumstances that make honourable action impossible or at least postpone it (for example, one wouldn't confront Hitler/Stalin/Djengiz Khan/Pinochet/McCarthy/Idi Amin*, risking one's own life, if having a baby to look after or an elderly and fragile parent).

So in my opinion it all boils down to the individual and its personal decisions being to blame or to praise. Everyone has done something in their lives they are proud of and something they are (or ought to be) ashamed of. Collective punishment of (and prejudice against!) a group, a people or a "race" is a medieval concept we finally ought to get rid of.

___
* no offense meant to any nation, I simply tried to find one potentially lethal person per continent and political system, thus keeping the negative feelings as perfectly balanced as possible (which presumably will result in all flaming me LOL). An Australian representative is missing from the list for the simple reason that I couldn't find out who it was who gave the governmental permission in 1824 (or was it 1814?) to randomly kill Aboriginees.
 
Oh dear, you're posting a very touch subject? When you're aware of concepts of privilege, you'll know there's no such thing as racism against white people, just like there's no such thing as sexism against males. You have to have oppression by a ruling class, always pressing downward to keep people beneath you, it's institutionalized, right? I really do hope a discussion here about such a sensitive topic will be able to remain civil? My feeling though is I recommend you probably really need to do a lot of research about privilege?

Oh white guilt (and male guilt) is so absolutely necessary right now, because of historical oppression of minorities and women, and it's still going on today, so your dominant class totally needs to realize what it's done and figure out how to even things out, and you know there's still such a very long way to go, right? Oh it's totally not at all about self hate, it's about recognizing how white (males) are still dominating in so very many ways.

I don't feel at all comparing sins of other cultures is in any way relevant? I mean, you've got to work on your own problems, right? I feel it's like saying "My neighbor killed his wife, but I'm okay because I'm only beating mine", if I'm making sense?
Sweet Jesus. So you're saying that we should ignore the horrific things other cultures have done and only care about the atrocities white people have committed.

You see this is a great example of why a lot of people think that "progressives" (lol) like you aren't even remotely interested in equality. You sure don't do yourself any favors here, white girl.

As for the OP's comment that people should be more proud of Western Civilization, he's right. However people - like whatsherface here - need to create a narrative that despite us being at the pinnacle of civilization and living in the most inclusive and socially aware culture the world has seen to date everything is broken and miserable.
 
It's important to point out the difference between guilt and responsibility.

White people - indeed, any people - are not guilty of the crimes committed by their forebears, nor should they be made to feel guilty about it. However there is the responsibility of learning from these atrocities and making sure it never happens again.
 
I'm saying that other cultures' past or current crimes don't excuse or affect our own, right?

I don't understand why you'd think progressives aren't interested in equality? We don't have equality right now, there's so far to go, and you have so many people trying to hold on to their privilege, so I really am struggling here? I mean, do you believe there isn't a power imbalance right now?

Oh yes western civilization has accomplished so much, but if you really believe there aren't groups of people who are suffering from a broken system, isn't that like the definition of privilege?

@Mr. Laser Beam not as individuals of course, but as a group yes, guilt is important to feel because it's a group responsibility to do something. You need a feeling of guilt to know wrong has been done and is still being done and needs to be fixed, right? It's not like bad things just happened to minorities and women in our society, bad things were done to them, right?
 
^ But that's the thing. Guilt and responsibility are not the same, and never have been.

Yes, there is always the obligation to know that crimes have been committed and the situation needs to be fixed. That is responsibility, not guilt.

For everything that the British Empire did through history, both the good and the bad, I don't feel particularly responsible for what was done, nor particularly guilty for what was done (because it all occurred a long time before I was born) but I am aware of it, especially given my nationality, living where I am and being married to an Irish woman.
 
You sure don't do yourself any favors here, white girl.

However people - like whatsherface here

This is not TNZ, and these personal comments are not appropriate, and need to stop. You can make your points without resorting to disparaging others. Post, not poster.

need to create a narrative that despite us being at the pinnacle of civilization and living in the most inclusive and socially aware culture the world has seen to date everything is broken and miserable.

Just because we are at the best we may have ever been, we are not where we could and should be. There is still a long ways to go. Surely you are not attempting to deny that racism or sexism no longer exist? Then progress still needs to be made.

Just to all participants in general... this is a very sensitive subject area, and I'm not sure I see this ending well. I will leave this open for now (note that other mods may decide otherwise, of course) because I don't want to silence anyone prematurely, but it will be watched closely. If it can't stay civil, it will have to be closed. Thank you.
 
As a mixed-race person myself, I balk at the idea of feeling guilt or responsibility for wrongs that were done by members of one of my races against the other in previous generations. If I were to have responsibility, then I would just as much of a right to a sense of shared victimhood on the other side, which would be contradictory. :shrug:

Kor
 
Guilt is not just about past crimes, but also you and I enjoy privilege right now that others don't, and we need to feel guilt for that, because we have to work to change injustice. As a white male especially you have advantages over minorities and women, and not feeling guilt about that is contributing to institutionalized racism, sexism, and other forms of discriminatory oppression. Like a bit part of the whole progressive movement is to help people see this, right?
 
Guilt is not just about past crimes, but also you and I enjoy privilege right now that others don't, and we need to feel guilt for that, because we have to work to change injustice. As a white male especially you have advantages over minorities and women, and not feeling guilt about that is contributing to institutionalized racism, sexism, and other forms of discriminatory oppression. Like a bit part of the whole progressive movement is to help people see this, right?

^ I might add to that and say, perhaps not guilt but an awareness of injustice. I know I have a privilege that my friend and neighbor does not. For example, in my quiet, suburban neighborhood a few years ago, I rolled through a stop sign and a cop saw me, waved at me and pointed at the sign. I held up my hands, making an "oops" gesture. He laughed and just shook his finger at me as he drove past.

My friend and neighbor got pulled over one afternoon in our same neighborhood. He had to get out and stand behind his truck, along with his passenger. They stood there for quite a long time as the cop called in their IDs and another cop came for back-up. Only they hadn't done ANYTHING. They are two tall black men; I'm an older, white woman. It makes me angry that they are treated differently--and mistreated--simply because they have more pigment in their skin than I do. I am aware that they will always feel differently about the police than I do. I am aware that I feel differently on a day to day basis about just being safe and not feeling worried. I am aware that they feel constantly judged, scrutinized and even feared, and it bothers me, because I know it's not right; we should be treated the same according to the rule of law (something I hold dear) but we're not. It disgusts me, it angers me. I don't feel guilt but I feel the responsibility, as a citizen, to point out the injustice and try to move others to rectify it. We, as a nation, can not tolerate racism, bigotry and discrimination. I don't feel guilt about it; I feel a responsibility to be aware of the problem and to make others aware of the problem, so that we could, in some way, make things better.
 
They way I have always looked at racism is anyone can be racist. It's just someone forming a sterotype and thinking their is some truth in it. Institutional racism though clearly comes from the fact that White people have had most of the control on how America has been run since the days the land was stolen from the Indians. Once you get down to the individual level it seems more open because deep down everyone is more alike than different which means we don' just share the good things about being human but also the bad ones. It's one of the reason's i'm always cynical about the future. Nobody has figured out how to make a better human being just yet. That's why I am hoping for robots someday running things. They won't have any of our emotional baggage. It will be all based on pure logic.

Jason
 
They way I have always looked at racism is anyone can be racist. It's just someone forming a sterotype and thinking their is some truth in it.
You're talking about bigotry which yes anyone can feel, but racism is always institutionalized, it's being at a disadvantage for your race, like sexism is being disadvantaged for your gender, and so on. @auntiehill's story is an example of racism.
 
You're talking about bigotry which yes anyone can feel, but racism is always institutionalized, it's being at a disadvantage for your race, like sexism is being disadvantaged for your gender, and so on. @auntiehill's story is an example of racism.

That's true. I always get bigotry and racism mixed up. I use to think racism was about the hatred and bigotry was about the discrimination.

Jason
 
Okay. I'm now lost. Are we saying that a person can be bigoted, but not racist - while an institution can be racist, but not bigoted?
That's why I am hoping for robots someday running things. They won't have any of our emotional baggage. It will be all based on pure logic.
Jason
Unless we program them to have our emotional baggage. I'm not ruling that out.
 
Okay. I'm now lost. Are we saying that a person can be bigoted, but not racist - while an institution can be racist, but not bigoted?

Unless we program them to have our emotional baggage. I'm not ruling that out.


Of course someone can be bigoted and not racist. If you hate your boss because of his skin color it still doesn't change the fact that he has more power over you. If someone wants to discriminate they actually need some personal power to do it unless your gettng a break someone else doesn't yet that also isn't coming from you but how society has formed. I mean you can also say they have the power by voting for someone who they think will be racist so I guess you could say they are both bigoted and sometimes racist but not capable of being racist all the time. Actually when you think to hard on it the differences can give you a headache which is why I am sure most people don't bother with the distinctions. It's just best to try and tell people to treat people as equals.

I would not want to give the robots emotions. Basically we need Data to run the planet.

Jason
 
Right, the person's feelings may be prejudiced or bigoted, until they use the system to inflict these feelings onto someone. This is when it becomes a racist act. So Bigotry is the feeling, where as racism is more the action/consequence.

As for the original post. I don't think that white guilt is constructive in any way, in the same way self-pity has no useful function. Feeling sorry for the actions of others in times past in which you had no influence does nothing to change the current problems. We just need to be aware of the mistakes they made and not repeat them.
 
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