Where did Eris transport to?

[kkt]

Okay, this has been discussed before, but it was before I was here

At the end of The Jem Hadar, Eris apparently transported away, but O'Brien reported no other ships within range. The Dominion and the Federation both knew about the other, and there had been a little bit of traffic from some Gamma Quadrant races to the Alpha Quadrant, regarding Quark's business venture, but no Dominion traffic what we're aware of.

Was Eris just transporting into empty space so she'd die without telling Sisko anything? Could the Dominion's ultra-long-range transporters work through the wormhole?

I say:

No, she would not commit suicide. Not because of being overly fond of her own life or unwilling to die for the benefit of the Founders, but because observing the Federation and reporting back to the Dominion was part of her mission.

No, transporters would not work through the wormhole. If they did, the Dominion would have used them to resupply their foothold in the Alpha Quadrant later.

O'Brien scanned for ships, but he scanned for them within what he considered to be normal transporter range, not the ultra-long-range models the Dominion had.

So, I say they had some sort of stealth or cloaking technology that wasn't very good yet. They didn't use it on their warships because those were high-powered ships and big, and the cloaks they had would interfere with their performance too much. But they did have a few ships specially built to be cloaked. They are no larger than a runabout, maybe even smaller, they have small engines and weak or no weapons. The Dominion really has them just for intelligence missions - like Eris. They tucked one or two of those cloaked ships in close to one of the civilian ships that their subject races were taking through the wormhole so they wouldn't be noticed passing through the wormhole. Once in the Alpha Quadrant, they separated and made their stealthy way off slowly to some nebula and waited for something important to do - like receive Eris when she activated her transporter. Or take a Founder on a mission to impersonate someone important in the Alpha Quadrant. Later on, the Founder who transported away from the conference on Earth where the bomb went off probably used another of the same type of ship, or maybe even the same one.

Thoughts?

 

[Timo]

As written, the episode might have suggested suicide, establishing how ruthless this New Enemyyyh! really is. But later events show no Vorta would do that.

I say they had perfectly good cloaks, and used them for spying missions with such skill that none were ever seen. This was one of the early forays into Alpha by somebody who wasn't a Changeling, so it called for this extra support measure even if Plan A was for Eris to infiltrate rather than to be extracted.

No later story would directly call for the use of such a cloakship, although we might infer some would always lurk in the background when our heroes thought they were safe...

As for the Antwerp bombing, the jury is still out on whether there ever was a Founder there, or whether Leyton faked it all. We can have him be two levels of evil there, depending. But if there was a Founder there, it probably would be in no haste to depart Earth. As we saw, the odds of getting caught, even when exposed in the middle of Starfleet's sacred ground at San Fran, were a flat zero.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tosk]

I don't see how the episode remotely implies suicide. At the very least, Kira certainly doesn't think so. "She'll be back. The question is who she'll bring with her?"

I always took it that she beamed to a ship. O'Brien only says that he can't trace the signal and there are no ships nearby. I assume the ship is either far away or cloaked, and we don't have enough information to be definitive either way. But we never see or hear evidence that the Dominion has ship cloaking, and we do have evidence that they can transport over huge distances. But I do like the idea of the Dominion keeping their cloaking tippity-top secret.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Dominion transporters have a much greater range than Federation models (in the prime universe anyway), so there may have been a ship outside the stations sensor range but within Dominion transporter range. It could be the Dominion snuck a ship though posing as another races coming from the GQ, or it could be an AQ ship picked up a Changeling or two on a survey mission on the Gamma side and once back to their home quadrant were then murdered and had their ship commandeered, waiting to extract Eris if/when needed and then smuggle her back to the Dominion.

 

[Timo]

It's a bit weird that there are only two onscreen examples of events explainable through long range transport - "The Search II" and "Covenant". Why wouldn't this weapon have been used as frequently as the Jem'Hadar invisibility or the Founder shapeshifting? Or at least as often as the superior Dominion sensors and antiproton scans and whatnot?

Interestingly, both examples are also ambiguous. Perhaps Eris didn't go particularly far but was good at masking her trail. And perhaps Kira wasn't transported directly to Empok Nor but to a nearby vessel, with Dukat mindfucking her to his usual ends. But we then have Worf for some reason believing in Dominion long range transporters. Since they are not in any adventure we would have seen, where did Worf witness them?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[dahj]

What if she wasn't a Vorta at all, but a Changeling and simply beamed somewhere else on the station, shapeshifted and later went on her merry way hitching a ride on any of the ships leaving DS9...

 

[kkt]

It's a bit weird that there are only two onscreen examples of events explainable through long range transport - "The Search II" and "Covenant". Why wouldn't this weapon have been used as frequently as the Jem'Hadar invisibility or the Founder shapeshifting? Or at least as often as the superior Dominion sensors and antiproton scans and whatnot?

Interestingly, both examples are also ambiguous. Perhaps Eris didn't go particularly far but was good at masking her trail. And perhaps Kira wasn't transported directly to Empok Nor but to a nearby vessel, with Dukat mindfucking her to his usual ends. But we then have Worf for some reason believing in Dominion long range transporters. Since they are not in any adventure we would have seen, where did Worf witness them?

Timo Saloniemi

If Kira was transported and then transported again, wouldn't she remember seeing the intermediate spot for half a second?

The times we saw the long-range transporter being used it was only a single person transporting at a time. Perhaps they can't transport more. The Jem Hadar typically fight in large units and don't want to spend a day transporting an entire platoon through the transporter one at a time.

Worf would believe them because he heard about them, from the Ops crew.

What if she wasn't a Vorta at all, but a Changeling and simply beamed somewhere else on the station, shapeshifted and later went on her merry way hitching a ride on any of the ships leaving DS9...

I don't think the Dominion would risk a Founder on a dangerous intelligence mission with people they knew almost nothing about. And where would the transporter be to beam her out, and how would it have gotten there? She took only the clothes on her back and the device locked around her neck. Although Eris being a Founder would explain why the Jem Hadar pretending to try to stop their escape used his weapon as a club instead of risking firing on them.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I just chalk this up to bad writing. The idea that there are no ships for DS9 to scan is pretty silly--it would mean that the station had no real purpose. Moreover, the Dominion could have had lower-level cloaking abilities, like the Federation (the kind where you disguise the ship as something else), confusing the sensors.

 

[Timo]

Then again, visuals in the early seasons confirm that there are no ships at DS9 in the general case...

Why would Dominion cloaks be "lower level"? One of the defining characteristics of the Dominion from "Jem'Hadar" on is that they have invisibity down pat!

If Kira was transported and then transported again, wouldn't she remember seeing the intermediate spot for half a second?

Probably not. Kirk had no recollection of things recently done to him when materializing on the fake starship on Gideon. So options abound: sedating, memory erasure, a mode of transport where one doesn't materialize in between.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Why would Dominion cloaks be "lower level"? One of the defining characteristics of the Dominion from "Jem'Hadar" on is that they have invisibity down pat!

Perhaps you did not see that I used the auxilliary verb "could?"

You don't think the station can scan beyond its visual range?

 

[valkyrie013]

Could have transported to a transport that was already docked or in a holding pattern? Or a hollowed out asteroid, or a number of other places.
For Kira, could have the transporter automatically knock her out when materializing. maybe.

 

[dupersuper]

I don't see how the episode remotely implies suicide. At the very least, Kira certainly doesn't think so. "She'll be back. The question is who she'll bring with her?"

Though I never thought she committed suicide, to play devils advocate: she never did come back.

Neither did those powers she had...

 

[Timo]

Perhaps you did not see that I used the auxilliary verb "could?"

I just don't see the need to postulate lower level, for any reason:

1) the Dominion is not technologically backward
2) the Dominion already demonstrably knows more about practical invisibility than the UFP does
3) the heroes nevertheless often face invisibility, and would not be easily fooled; they can even see through a Romulan cloak, supposedly the elite in the neighborhood, with sufficient prompting ("Visionary", "Die Is Cast")

It might be, though, that Dominion invisibility is all mental: a young Jem'Hadar lacking all gear can do it in "The Abandoned". Yet even a group of trained adults has never done a David Copperfield on any sizable object as far as we know. Quite possibly, ships are too big a feat for the Jem'Hadar trickery, even if clothing and infantry weapons are not.

You don't think the station can scan beyond its visual range?

It probably can scan far away. But cloaks in general seem to work the better, the farther away the observer stands. Only energetic warp fields might be seen at a distance.

Scans never reveal any Jem'Hadar FWIW. Would a Vorta be capable of equal stealth? Perhaps Eris never went anywhere!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It was probably a long range transport. Or for all we know she transported into the cargo hold of some ship docked at DS9 and snuck out.

 

[DonIago]

I think it was a long-range transport.

I've also tended to assume that the Jem'hadar ability to shroud (the term used in the novels) is biological rather than technological.

 

[kkt]

The trouble with transporting in a ship or a cargo hold on DS9 is that she just arrived in the Alpha Quadrant that same day or maybe the day before. When did she have a chance to scope out where there was a cargo hold that was going to stay vacant for a while? And install a transporter there! She'd need one at the destination unless you think her little wrist button has the entire workings for a transporter in it.

I just don't see the need to postulate lower level, for any reason:

1) the Dominion is not technologically backward
2) the Dominion already demonstrably knows more about practical invisibility than the UFP does
3) the heroes nevertheless often face invisibility, and would not be easily fooled; they can even see through a Romulan cloak, supposedly the elite in the neighborhood, with sufficient prompting ("Visionary", "Die Is Cast")

Ship for ship, the Federation seems to be superior to the Dominion. And Federation officers are better at improvising engineering solutions to problems. But the Dominion shipyards build ships faster, and the certainly breed Jem Hadar and Vorta faster humanoids can produce adults and train them.

The only time the Dominion used invisibility was the personal invisibility of the Jem Hadar. We've seen a lot of Dominion ships, and if they could cloak them I think we'd know about it unless evidence to the contrary comes along.

The Dominion did know about using an anti-proton scan to find cloaked ships, but it didn't work if the ship wasn't at warp.

 

[DonIago]

Well, it's possible that the Dominion were planning this for so long that they'd already mapped out the layout of the station before the events of the episode even occur.

The cargo holds do have transporters. Typically they're not configured to do biological transport, but it still seems like something Eris could have pre-arranged, if we're going to pursue this theory.

 

[Tosk]

I've also tended to assume that the Jem'hadar ability to shroud (the term used in the novels) is biological rather than technological.

The young Jem'Hadar mentored by Odo does it, so I agree.

Edit: Unless the Founders implant the tech during gestation.

 

[Timo]

Random points:

- Yes, DS9 was probably teeming with Founders and other Dominion agents since the first season already. There's little reason why it would not have been: the heroes had no means of screening for hostile agents. And the Dominion did boast on extensive Alpha knowledge in the "first" encounter in "Jem'Hadar" already.

- Pre-installing hardware or software on DS9 might be doable, then. But taking it out afterwards should also be a breeze, for a Founder who already has had its run of the systems and could have corrupted all the security measures (heck, even the Klaestron could sabotage the station without anybody really noticing, in "Dax").

- Perverting stationboard transporters should be particularly easy, what with the users enjoying access to them.

- But "configuring from cargo to biological" is a myth. There are no separate settings: cargo transporters don't kill humans even when the operator doesn't know there's a human in there ("Dagger of the Mind"). We never hear of transporter settings that would endanger humanoids; at most, Odan in "The Host" avoids the transporter on any pretext lest the bug inside his tummy be discovered.

- Yes, Jem'Hadar cloaking is biological. The Jem'Hadar also cloak their guns, though, so they could cloak their ships as well. Whether they do, we can't really tell. After all, the Jem'Hadar can't cloak and fight simultaneously, and their ships only ever appear in order to pick fights... Which might simply mean they choose to un-appear for all other purposes!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

It may not be that the Jem'hadar cloak their guns, but rather that the shroud extends for a certain radius beyond their body? Or depending on the nature of it can simply include things they're holding, perhaps things designed to accommodate the shroud?

I really doubt that the Jem'hadar cloak their ships, for the same reason that the Borg don't cloak their ships (that we know of) - they simply don't have a reason to do so.