When to Drop Out of Warp

[ZapBrannigan]

Dropping out of warp when you arrive at a planet seems like it would require immensely precise timing. But in some of the movies, IIRC, Kirk just gives a casual verbal order for the helmsman to manually push a button. I don't think that would work out too well. Dropping out of warp should be entirely automated.

Also, if you travel the vast distance between two solar systems, could you even make such a precise determination at the start of your journey and program in the end point, or would you need to drop out of warp a safe distance from your destination, take a fresh navigational fix, and then hop to the finish line in a short warp burst?

Or, is it plausible that you could "look where you're going" and take navigational measurements while at warp? You are in subspace, and racing toward a destination faster than nature can send info about what's ahead to your instruments. I think what's ahead would be a blur. And I think at the start of your journey, you are just too far away to plot a precise course down to the trillionth of a second. Hence the "stop early and plot a short hop to the end" idea.

 

[Mister_Atoz]

Off the top of my head, the only time I recall Kirk doing that is is ST6 just before Chang attacks.

I myself think you would need a carefully calculated "drop point" but since Kirk evidently does order the ship to drop out of warp at an arbitrary point, we should assume he knows what he's doing.

Maybe it's more of a "window" than a point, Kirk being the experienced spacer that he is, knows when he's in the "envelope" to drop out of warp. He also knows his experienced helmsman and navigator know what they're doing and will be able to adjust their "drop point" on the fly.

As for the approach. I don't see any reason why the starship couldn't be taking sensor readings at a distance, and either using their sophisticated computers to compensate for the lag in the information, or they have subspace scanners that travel faster than light.

 

[Nebusj]

As for the approach. I don't see any reason why the starship couldn't be taking sensor readings at a distance, and either using their sophisticated computers to compensate for the lag in the information, or they have subspace scanners that travel faster than light.

I remember in ancient days Trek fandom had a hypothesis that the ``time barrier'' mentioned amounted to a computational one: that spaceships used to have to stop, do long-range scans of space ahead, travel to the limits of what they had scanned, and then stop again to search for safe paths again. But then along came duotronics and suddenly they could search for navigational hazards while at warp, and ships were suddenly much faster effectively. I quite like that idea; it seems like a really plausible faster-than-light drive limitation.

 

[Mytran]

I remember in ancient days Trek fandom had a hypothesis that the ``time barrier'' mentioned amounted to a computational one: that spaceships used to have to stop, do long-range scans of space ahead, travel to the limits of what they had scanned, and then stop again to search for safe paths again. But then along came duotronics and suddenly they could search for navigational hazards while at warp, and ships were suddenly much faster effectively. I quite like that idea; it seems like a really plausible faster-than-light drive limitation.

This sounds like a really plausible interpretation of the mysterious "Time Barrier". Is there anything in Enterprise that would blatantly contradict it? I really hope not!

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Maybe it's more of a "window" than a point, Kirk being the experienced spacer that he is, knows when he's in the "envelope" to drop out of warp. He also knows his experienced helmsman and navigator know what they're doing and will be able to adjust their "drop point" on the fly.

Every fraction of a second you travel at warp is a long distance at sublight speed. A fraction of a second one way or the other could mean a difference of weeks at impulse power.

I'm basing this on the fact that they have to go at high warp speed to travel between the stars, at least hundreds of times the speed of light. The acceptable window would be too brief for manual control.

But now I'm thinking the solution is that they reduce their warp factors as they approach a solar system, dropping down to the speed of light as they near the planet. That's less than 200,000 miles per second, and the window idea starts to work.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think when navigators/conn officers lay in a course for a planet or whatever, they also plot a safe point to drop out of warp from their destination. They can probably cut it close to within a few light-minutes, because if we go with the idea of full impulse being .25c, then it will take several more minutes to go the rest of the way at full impulse, and even longer still at half- and one-quarter.

 

[Timo]

Dropping out of warp when you arrive at a planet seems like it would require immensely precise timing. But in some of the movies, IIRC, Kirk just gives a casual verbal order for the helmsman to manually push a button. I don't think that would work out too well. Dropping out of warp should be entirely automated.

...And I think it indeed is. That's what happens when you push the button: the automation brings you to a precise halt.

It's very good automation, too. Even in emergencies (and especially in those), it brings starships to points in space where a maximally safe haven is maximally nearby, and even tries to give the correct velocity vector. It's no fluke that so many "damaged and blind" ships end up landing or crash-landing on planets.

Sometimes there may be embarrassing situations where the CO says "Drop out of warp!" too early, and no matter how long the helmsperson makes his "Aaaaye, Sir!", the time between the keypress and the actual moment the automation finally allows the ship to decelerate may drag on to half a minute or more... But every CO knows to give the command early rather than late.

You are in subspace, and racing toward a destination faster than nature can send info about what's ahead to your instruments. I think what's ahead would be a blur.

You aren't limited to what nature can provide, though, as many incidents establish. You have a subspace radar of some sort, and even if it can't necessarily tell whether the civilization on the planet ahead has proceeded from steam engines to warp engines since the last time you got detailed lightspeed data from there, it can tell where that planet is down to the millimeter.

This sounds like a really plausible interpretation of the mysterious "Time Barrier". Is there anything in Enterprise that would blatantly contradict it? I really hope not!

I don't think there is any line of dialogue in the "We have now maintained warp five for two weeks straight, Captain" vein, no. And even if there were, this could always be read as "...With the mandatory reorientation stops, of course". Naturally, there are zero episodes that would actually feature a reorientation stop!

Timo Saloniemi


Timo Saloniemi

 

[retroenzo]

I tend to compare it with something like a car. When we're going somewhere far away, we go faster than we would normally. However the closer you get to your destination you slow down. When I go home from work, I take a motorway for most of the journey and travel at a good 70mph (*cough* erm... -ish). When I get closer I'm taking country roads and doing about 30. As I pull into my road, I slow again and then I'm manoeuvring the car at barely walking pace as I park it.

I'm guessing when the captain commands the helm to drop out of warp, we're seeing the slowing down part of that. The actual manoeuvring and getting into orbit is all done by the helm while the rest of the bridge crew are having a conversation about the planet below.

Although I think I'd love to see this:

CAPTAIN: Drop out of warp, ensign.
HELM: Aye sir. (button pushes)
CAPTAIN: Where's planet Stinkybottom IV?
HELM: We've overshot it sir. Do you want me to plot a course back?

 

[JasonJ]

This is why I much prefer BG style "jumps". Predetermined "safe spots" for arrival before jumping to the destination. Perhaps this is how it goes on Enterprise-J with its space-time folding engines; instantaneous arrival at your coordinates.

 

[David cgc]

Isn't there a theory that effective warp speed slows down as you approach a gravity well, to account for the relatively slow approaches at warp 9 for the slingshot maneuver? By the numbers, going at that speed should blast you from one end of the solar system out the other side in under a minute, not take you into a leisurely approach from the inner solar system at a top speed where the proper time to execute the maneuver is within a Vulcan's reaction time.

That could make it easier to hit the bullseye if, once you're getting close to a planet or star, warp 5 drops down to, effectively, warp 1.1

 

[Mytran]

Or even slower, if Enterprise's approach to the asteroid in The Paradise Syndrome is to be believed!

 

[Timo]

Or ST4:TVH or "Tomorrow is Yesterday", featuring high warp right next to Sol. Heck, perhaps everything with "subspace" in it behaves as if in molasses when next to gravity wells, explaining not only why subspace shockwaves hit their targets with all the speed of an Indian Ocean tsunami, but also why nobody down on Earth even noticed subspace existed before the space age really got going.

Contrast this to the occasions where ship do go to warp close to stars. Generally, speed is not established on such occasions, but DS9 "By Inferno's Light" is an exception of sorts, with warp engaged specifically in order to exceed the best speed of impulse. There's also "The Schitzoid Man" where warping the mothership in and out is considered a good idea, as opposed to sending a shuttlecraft. One might deduce that warp doesn't always get slower close to stars, or at least not uniformly slower. Perhaps it's more a matter of fickle subspace weather, and on a calm day it indeed is possible to overshoot when dropping out of warp?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

"The molasses effect" - I like that, and neatly takes the place of several lengthy paragraphs that we've previously needed when discussing it! :-)

 

[JasonJ]

Or ST4:TVH or "Tomorrow is Yesterday", featuring high warp right next to Sol. Heck, perhaps everything with "subspace" in it behaves as if in molasses when next to gravity wells, explaining not only why subspace shockwaves hit their targets with all the speed of an Indian Ocean tsunami, but also why nobody down on Earth even noticed subspace existed before the space age really got going.

Contrast this to the occasions where ship do go to warp close to stars. Generally, speed is not established on such occasions, but DS9 "By Inferno's Light" is an exception of sorts, with warp engaged specifically in order to exceed the best speed of impulse. There's also "The Schitzoid Man" where warping the mothership in and out is considered a good idea, as opposed to sending a shuttlecraft. One might deduce that warp doesn't always get slower close to stars, or at least not uniformly slower. Perhaps it's more a matter of fickle subspace weather, and on a calm day it indeed is possible to overshoot when dropping out of warp?

Timo Saloniemi

A good point... which made me think, perhaps the lower warp factors are more subject to the Molasses Effect near a gravity well than are the higher warps. I.E. Warp Factor 1-3 may be affected, whereby your relativistic velocity decreases... however at Warp 5, 6, 7... your velocity, or perhaps the strength of, or the forces produced by your warp field are enough to overcome the Molasses Effect, allowing you to purposely fly at high velocity near stars, or to warp past planets and other celestial bodies when desired.

 

[Mytran]

That wouldn't really work with what we saw the BOP do in ST4 though, where it was flying steadily towards the sun at ever increasing warp speeds (rather than massively overshooting the sun at Warp 9)

If anything, you could argue that the effect gets progressively worse at higher warp speeds - all that warp energy is still present (contributing to the burgeoning time warp) but your actual velocity doesn't make it past 1.1 times lightspeed...

 

[JasonJ]

What about a variance in the effect depending on if you are flying straight at the object/gravity well, as opposed to circumventing it at some extreme angle? Think of those parabolic funnel things they have in the mall, drop a coin in and watch it circle down the black hole style tube...

If you come at it from an extreme angle, try to skim the edge so-to-speak, the gravity well pulls on you laterally, slowing you down. If you were to point yourself close to center, of just off-center, the gravity pulls you in, and could theoretically increase your velocity. Might be why we see the BOP in ST:IV reach warp 9.8 according to Sulu. Normally, I thought the old BOP was capped at about 8.1.

 

[Timo]

It seems that when you do high warp close to a star and fiddle with your flightpath, you risk getting time travel. Perhaps it's one and the same thing - most paths make you travel to the future, meaning you arrive much later than you'd think, but a well-chosen path gives the reverse result, allowing you to arrive even before you left.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Stevil2001]

"The molasses effect" - I like that, and neatly takes the place of several lengthy paragraphs that we've previously needed when discussing it! :-)

It seems that when you do high warp close to a star and fiddle with your flightpath, you risk getting time travel. Perhaps it's one and the same thing - most paths make you travel to the future, meaning you arrive much later than you'd think, but a well-chosen path gives the reverse result, allowing you to arrive even before you left.

Hm, some kind of factor that makes it difficult break away from lightspeed when nearing a stellar gravity well, that can occasionally be harnessed to travel through time.

Hm, maybe we could call it the... lightspeed breakaway factor.

 

[Mytran]

Hm, some kind of factor that makes it difficult break away from lightspeed when nearing a stellar gravity well, that can occasionally be harnessed to travel through time.

Hm, maybe we could call it the... lightspeed breakaway factor.

True, but I'm keeping the molasses effect in my personal Trek lexicon (Trexicon?) because it helps describe not only the circumstances around those errant solar-slingshot time travellers, but all travel at FTL speeds when in the close vicinity of a star.

 

[F. King Daniel]

When to drop out of warp? RIGHT IN YOUR ENEMIES' FACE like the USS Vengeance did. That was epic.