When did the writers figure stuff out?

[Hunter X]

Ever since there was Lost, there was debate on how much the writers knew about the Island and its mysteries themselves. There are those who think they had a complete outline from the start, others who think they're still just making things up as they go, and the rest of us somewhere in the middle. In the spirit of this debate--which goes deeper into something that I find even more fascinating, the writing process of different TV shows--I thought I'd bring the debate to its own thread. I'll also give a bit of a breakdown on my own theory...for the first couple of years, at least.

Pre-Show

• The writers know the show is about a group of survivors who crash on a mysterious Island. Weird, paranormal stuff happens there, like seeing ghosts, visions and hearing voices. There's also a monster in the jungle.
• There are other people on the Island, including those who seem native to the Island, the Others, and a French woman who was stranded there earlier. There is also evidence of other people who have come and gone.
• The characters are mostly sketched out. Jack needs to fix things and was married, but is now divorced. Kate is on the run for something, we'll figure that out later. Sawyer is a conman out for revenge. Hurley is happy-go-lucky and an unlucky lottery winner. Claire is pregnant. Charlie is a former rockstar and herion addict. Locke had a miserable life and was paralyzed. Walt is Michael's estranged son. Sun and Jin are a troubled married couple, with Sun knowing English and about to leave Jin, and Jin has a bad job working for Sun's dad. Boone and Shannon are step-siblings with a complicated relationship.
• There are possibly other survivors from the crash. We'll get to them if the show succeeds, and hint at it with Rose's husband.
• There will be a hinting at lines having to be drawn and survivors picking sides with black and white symbolism serving as foreshadowing.

Most of this I figure because the writers have said that they didn't really sketch out a lot of the show until the episode where Sayid encounters Danielle. They didn't know if it'd be a hint until then. I'm not sure if this refers to figuring out the rest of the show when they wrote Sayid's episode, or when it aired. I think it's when it aired, which means they didn't figure out the more longterm stuff until writing much later in season one.

Season One

• They begin to outline who the Others are and introduce them through Ethan. The Others have an interest in children, both Aaron and Walt, because they will be/are special. The changing of their fascination with Claire being due to their own infertility won't happen until season 2 or 3.
• There is a hatch in the jungle and a cable on the beach, evidence of people with technology having visited before. The writers decide to wait until the hiatus between seasons 1 and 2 to figure this out.
• What Kate is on the run for--killing her dad--is figured out towards the end of season one.
• The numbers have been an idea dropped in episodes for a while, but it isn't really fully given name until Hurley's episode.
• How Locke is paralyzed is figured out when his Dad is introduced.
• The writers begin to have ideas for what the monster is, including it looking like a cloud of black smoke. They also begin to have a pretty good idea of the black smoke being what we now see being developed in season 6.

Season Two

• Dharma is developed during the hiatus, as well as everything that's in the hatch. They know the button is real and what it does from the start. Dharma is the cause of the polar bears and could have something to do with the weird stuff on the Island, but it's not just because of them.
• The tail section people are introduced, though the writers have been planning this probably since they knew they'd have a season 2.
• Ben is introduced and they know he's an Other, but he's just cannon fodder at first. It isn't until the actor works out and then signs on for season 3 that they develop his story. They also begin developing the idea that the Others have a great leader they call Jacob, though they always probably figured that the leader of the Other's was some mythical figure who held the secrets of the Island.

Enough from me for now. What do you think?

 

[Mr Light]

From interviews I've read... for the Pilot they were completely winging it. They just threw in actors they liked and created roles for them and didn't know what the Island was. They didn't know what was in the letter was Sawyer reading. Over the course of Season One they hashed out the entire story. They've said several times that the introduction of the Adam and Eve skeletons in early S1 was to be proof that they knew where they were going all along. So when we find out what those skeletons are at the end of the show... they had that worked out since the start of Season One. They knew that Desmond was in the Hatch the moment they introduced it. In Season Two, Ben was only supposed to be in three episodes but they loved the actor so much they decided to make him the leader of the Others, rather than introducing a new character for that role. I believe it was during the plotting of Season Three that they decided on the format for the final seasons (leave the Island, flash forwards, time travel to 70s, etc).

 

[Hunter X]

Yeah, I remember reading some of those same bits and pieces, though I didn't know that they claim they knew Desmond was in the hatch all along, that Adam and Eve have been figured out all this time and that they really didn't have any character backstories hashed out before the pilot. That's unusual, that they wouldn't even have some basic backstories figured out in a show bible.

I can believe that they figured out the format for seasons three, four and five back in season two even. They hint at some time travel in season two, the stuff with Penny in the final scene of season two leads to the freighter, and there's just an overall build-up of the Others that naturally leads into season three. In fact, I wonder if that's why season two is actually what I consider the weakest of the five we've seen so far. It's almost like another pilot season, where they're setting up the rest of the show, so it's still big on setup and small on resolution.

Season one sets up the characters and sketches out the Others, but the main mystery focus is the hatch. Season two takes care of the hatch mystery, but then directly sets up or hints at major elements of the following seasons: the way the Others are in season three, their infertility, Ben, "a great leader" Jacob, Jacob's lists, the ability to leave the island, Desmond and Penny, time travel, Widmore, the black smoke being a judge, other hatches on the Island, the four toed foot, and more I'm probably forgetting.

 

[Mr Light]

They had a very small amount of time to write and shoot the pilot from the time it was commissioned. They didn't create the idea it was given to them, I believe by the head of NBC at the time. Originally it was just going to be a show about people surviving a plane crash on an abandoned island with nothing paranormal or interesting going on. So it was all thrown together at the last minute they just knew they wanted weirdness on the Island that would be gradually revealed, hence Smokey, but they didn't know what. They just grabbed all the actors they liked without fleshing out who they were. Characters like Hurley and Jin and Sun were just tossed in because they liked the actors. Once the pilot was shot, they spent the time before S1 filmed to start developing the character back-stories and what the Island was.

 

[gh4chiefs]

I'm not convinced they figured it out yet.

 

[Hober Mallow]

According to Bryan Burke way back in the first season, they'd come up with story material for a six year series even before the pilot was written, but the impression I've always had is that it was nothing set in stone and probably just the guys -- Burke, Lindelof, Abrams, et al -- brainstorming story possibilities. Abrams has said in an interview this year that the show is nothing like he could have imagined it to have been, so I'm sure whatever material he, Burke, and Lindelof came up with in that early brainstorming session was changed significantly.

I would say most of the rest of the series was figured out after Lindelof and Cuse had negotiated a finite number of seasons with ABC. Probably the most significant development happened around season three.

 

[Hunter X]

^Exactly. I have no doubt they they had random ideas thrown out as far back as season one to possibly develop. Some of them were dropped, some were developed. It can be as simple as being in season one and having a brainstorming session with your writers and saying "okay, how weird should we get?" and someone else replies "let's do an alternate reality one day!" and then they file that away and pull it out if the story keeps on developing as so.

We've seen the threads they started developing and have dropped, such as Nikki and Paulo, Mr. Eko, Walt and Libby. I think these were all things that they wanted to do more with, but couldn't or decided not to for a variety of reasons. I also think they ended up developing parts of the story that they had no idea would be so successful, such as Ben, and Sun and Jin's marriage.

gh4chiefs, I'd imagine they do at this point...though I guess we'll have to see how their answers hold together. No matter what they've decided the answers are, they're set. They just may not be very good answers, i.e. "God did it."

 

[gh4chiefs]

gh4chiefs, I'd imagine they do at this point...though I guess we'll have to see how their answers hold together. No matter what they've decided the answers are, they're set. They just may not be very good answers, i.e. "God did it."

Well actually that's my point, I'm really having a hard time reconcilling all that has happened in 6 seasons. I'm thinking about how Ben and Others seemed to be intent on killing, capturing, torturing, etc the Losties early on and now all of a sudden they're "candidates" (WhateverTF that means) and they're almost treated as holy ones or something.

And that's just one example. I think some stuff from the original season, (like the Adam and Eve skeletons)and then seasons 5 and 6 may tie together, but I have a feeling a great deal of the 2-4th season stuff is just gonna be blown off.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

The story I heard, which seems to roughly match what Mr. Light is saying, was that around the time Locke and Boone first find the hatch, they started hashing out the backstory.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Well, as far as Ben goes, I think he was always going to be a major character. It's true Henry Gale was originally going to be killed in season 2, but originally he wasn't supposed to be the leader of the Others. Henry was going to die and we were going to meet the leader of the Others in season three. The producers decided, though, that it would be cool to find out they had the leader all along. It made for a great story twist, but hardly significantly altered the course of the series. Michael Emerson playing Henry Gale but not Ben Linus would have been a tragedy, though.

Yes, there are story developments raised in earlier seasons that were never followed up on, but there are also quite a few that were. The runway built in season three turned out to be where the Ajira flight landed in season five, there are multiple mentions of Jacob's list in season three that we've finally seen in season six... I'm sure I could think of some more examples if I gave it some more thought, but that's just off the top of my head.

I guess you have to define what you mean about "planned ahead." I think they've had a vauge notion of what they've wanted for the series since the first season, probably had a pretty complete outline since season three, but I don't think they ever know for sure what they're going to do until they plot out each season in detail right at the beginning of each season.

 

[Hunter X]

I guess you have to define what you mean about "planned ahead." I think they've had a vauge notion of what they've wanted for the series since the first season, probably had a pretty complete outline since season three, but I don't think they ever know for sure what they're going to do until they plot out each season in detail right at the beginning of each season.

Yeah, which is pretty much how most serialized shows seem to work. The writers have a basic idea where they'd like the overall show to go, hash out an outline at the beginning of each season of what that season will be about, and adapt the story as real life interferes. Even the most meticulously planned show arc is subject to factors like actors quitting, taking maternity leave, etc.

Being a great TV writer seems to be a tricky mix of developing a tight story to tell over a season--occassionally an entire show--then dropping the crappy story points as soon as it becomes clear they don't work, adapting to the effects of real life needs, and siezing the stories and twists that may not have been part of the original outline, but would be way better than what you came up with in the first place.

And then making it seem like everything went as planned exactly from the start.

One example of the Lost writers doing this well is the somewhat recent revelation that they originally had Mr. Eko's story planned all the way into season 5. You'd never know if from the way the story developed, though, aside from the fact that Eko seems to be set up for something more in season two than what he ended up doing. But seasons 3-5 don't have any characters obviously filling a Mr. Eko role, nor does there seem to be a crucial element missing. However they adapted the story, I think they did it fairly seemlessly.

 

[chrisspringob]

I don't really mind that the writers abandoned or invented on the fly specific character arcs, as with, say, Nikki and Paulo, Eko, Ben, etc. You have to be flexible with actor availability and the like. I don't even really have a problem with them not planning out the future direction of the show.

What I do find annoying though, and what I do think is definitely a cheat, is when the writers of a TV show aren't even following any particular logic with respect to the *current* mysteries on the show. It's one thing to not have planned out in Season 1 what the Others are going to be doing in Season 5. It's another thing to introduce the Others but not even work out an internal explanation for who they are, what their agenda is, etc. It's like, "let's just have them kidnap people, and we'll work out later what the reasons are."

I don't know. I wish they would have simply worked out what exactly the Island was at the very beginning, and what the main conflicts are, etc., without seemingly going through multiple retcons along the way. I mean, they've done an amazing job making it fit together regardless, but it's still rather painfully obvious that they had no clue back in Season 1 that the central conflict on the Island was going to involve the Smoke Monster and some guy named Jacob who we never heard of until Season 3 or saw until the Season 5 finale.

 

[gh4chiefs]

What I do find annoying though, and what I do think is definitely a cheat, is when the writers of a TV show aren't even following any particular logic with respect to the *current* mysteries on the show. It's one thing to not have planned out in Season 1 what the Others are going to be doing in Season 5. It's another thing to introduce the Others but not even work out an internal explanation for who they are, what their agenda is, etc. It's like, "let's just have them kidnap people, and we'll work out later what the reasons are."

I don't know. I wish they would have simply worked out what exactly the Island was at the very beginning, and what the main conflicts are, etc., without seemingly going through multiple retcons along the way. I mean, they've done an amazing job making it fit together regardless, but it's still rather painfully obvious that they had no clue back in Season 1 that the central conflict on the Island was going to involve the Smoke Monster and some guy named Jacob who we never heard of until Season 3 or saw until the Season 5 finale.

I think you've said in a much more effective manner what I in my frustration haven't been quite able to convey properly. In other words, well said, and I couldn't agree more.

The thing I'm feeling now is "disconnected" from a lot of what's happened in this series. So much of it seems irrelevant now, largely for the reasons chrisspringob has noted here.

EDIT TO ADD: I will cut them some slack however in the fact that I know the uncertainity of how long they would be on the air contributed to some of the problems I percieve. I think had they known from day one how long this show would last, I believe they might have worked it out a little better.

 

[D Man]

I don't know. I wish they would have simply worked out what exactly the Island was at the very beginning, and what the main conflicts are, etc., without seemingly going through multiple retcons along the way. I mean, they've done an amazing job making it fit together regardless, but it's still rather painfully obvious that they had no clue back in Season 1 that the central conflict on the Island was going to involve the Smoke Monster and some guy named Jacob who we never heard of until Season 3 or saw until the Season 5 finale.

That's probably true, but they've done an expert job of retconning certain things in so that a lot of things work seamlessly. I just started yet another rewatch from the top, and wow if that bit in the pilot with Locke showing Walt backgammon doesn't fit in perfectly. "Two sides...one is light, and one is dark." Cue "The Substitute:" "Inside joke." Awesome.

 

[Hunter X]

I don't know. I wish they would have simply worked out what exactly the Island was at the very beginning, and what the main conflicts are, etc., without seemingly going through multiple retcons along the way. I mean, they've done an amazing job making it fit together regardless, but it's still rather painfully obvious that they had no clue back in Season 1 that the central conflict on the Island was going to involve the Smoke Monster and some guy named Jacob who we never heard of until Season 3 or saw until the Season 5 finale.

That's probably true, but they've done an expert job of retconning certain things in so that a lot of things work seamlessly. I just started yet another rewatch from the top, and wow if that bit in the pilot with Locke showing Walt backgammon doesn't fit in perfectly. "Two sides...one is light, and one is dark." Cue "The Substitute:" "Inside joke." Awesome.

Yeah. I think I've read that the writers have known since they first outlined the rest of the show in the middle of season one or so what the Smoke Monster was, and with the revisiting of Christian's coffin in The Lighthouse, it seems they're going to tie things to the first season quite well. The early references to dark and light in season one, from the backgammon game, to finding a black and white stone with Adam and Eve, to Locke's eyes being black and white in Claire's nightmare, tells me that they always intended to setup some sort of ultimate battle between good and evil. The thing is, these hints and foreshadowings were largely dropped until we see Jacob in white and the Man in Black in, well...black, at the end of season five. Were they dropped with the writers always intending to go back to them? Maybe. But it would have been nice to have the symbolism consistently appear in season two through four.

As for a central conflict, like I just said, I think it was always supposed to be "white" against "black" at some point. But with the ever-widening scope of conflict this show presents in each season, a central conflict gets sort of lost. Here's what I mean:

Season One: The conflict is largely between the castaways. Although other threats present themselves, like the Others and the dangers of the Island, I'd say the main conflicts from episode to episode are the survivors fighting amonst themselves. We as fans speculate that the ultimate showdown will be between camps lead by Jack and Locke, or possibly Sawyer, one white, one black.

Season Two: The conflict in this season is a little divided. I think it's largely between man and the button, but there's also the Others beginning to dominate a little bit more. We as fans speculate that the ultimate showdown may still be between Jack and Locke and their divided camps, but it could also be between the survivors and the Others, or even Locke and Mr. Eko, with them being setup as opposing "priests."

Season Three: The conflict is now all out between the survivors and the Others. We as fans speculate that the ultimate showdown will be between the Others--with Jacob as their evil head and Ben his Darth Vader--and the survivors, lead by Jack and/or Locke.

Season Four: The conflict is now between the Island and greedy outside influences, represented in Widmore. The ultimate showdown will be between Ben and Widmore as two powerful men fighting over the island with our castaways stuck in the middle. The black and white symbolism is really lost here, as neither character seems exactly "good."

Season Five: The conflict is between our survivors and their destiny. We as fans have no idea what the ultimate showdown will be, as time travel makes our heads hurt. There seems to be bigger forces maneuvering Ben and Widmore, though, and now there's a "shadow of the statue" group and the finale introduces the Man in Black.

Season Six: The conflict is now between Jacob and the Man in Black, with our survivors acting as pawns. It has grown in scope from 48 castaways bickering on a beach, to fighting with the natives, to battling forces that originate off the Island, to possibly the ultimate fight between good and evil that will decide the fate of the world.

Everytime we think we know the central conflict of the show, the writers pull back a little bit and say "well, actually, we're gonna make it even more epic than that." At which point you have people saying that this is God and Satan in the Garden of Eden, which is just getting goofy.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Interesting line from a season two podcast in light of what we now know about the monster/MIB:

The monster will definitely be back in season 3. The reason that the monster was not very present in season 2 is that there was simply not enough time. But: "There's a good chance that we actually saw the monster this season, but didn't realize that we were looking at the monster" (dixit Lindelof).

 

[Starbreaker]

I would like to see some old Smoke Monster/Christian Shephard theories from back in the earlier seasons. I bet they are spot on.

 

[coolghoul]

That's probably true, but they've done an expert job of retconning certain things in so that a lot of things work seamlessly. I just started yet another rewatch from the top, and wow if that bit in the pilot with Locke showing Walt backgammon doesn't fit in perfectly. "Two sides...one is light, and one is dark." Cue "The Substitute:" "Inside joke." Awesome.

It's not all good.

I think we are never going to know why Sayid was resurrected using those waters or why he had to be "tortured" by Dogen to realize that he's turning "dark" etc. Or even what that "darkness" was...

I know I'm jumping the gun since there are still 4 weeks to go but things are now moving so fast, that I doubt whether the writers will have the time to explain this or even Faraday's Mom or all the things that they have going on and still do the the pulse-pounding thrilling story that we still have to see for the finale.

 

[Hunter X]

Yeah, one thing I remember quite clearly is that even during season one, Cuse and Lindeloft were saying that they knew what the Smoke Monster was, but that showing this could only be done in the last season. Otherwise, it would be giving way too much away at once. So I think they just about always knew that part of the story at the very least.

Now, that knowledge could simply have been "there's an evil being on the island who can appear as the ghosts of your past or a pillar of black smoke, and in the final season it will be the main bad guy," with things like Jacob, the manipulation and death of John Locke, killing the candidates, etc. being figured out during later seasons.

 

[LitmusDragon]

I don't think they ever quite figured out what they were doing with Walt, except that the actor playing him had suddenly grown too big and they had to write him out.