When Did Continuity Diverge From TOS and How?

[StarryEyed]

I'm putting this question to those who mostly enjoy TOS and largely reject most of what came after. I hope this doesn't become a debate thread (fat chance, I know).

While I'm not a TOS purist by any stretch (liked TNG and DS9 more), I'm much more sympathetic to the viewpoint after Enterprise and ST-XI since I feel exactly the same way about those. I'd like to get a feel where you are coming from. It doesn't have to just be hard continuity errors; I'd even like to hear about vague "this just doesn't feel right" kind of things.

I personally don't believe in the premise that TOS is incompatible with any of the movies before ST-XI or any of the series before Enterprise. That doesn't mean I think there is anything wrong with anyone else feeling that way and I'd like to get a better understanding of those that do.

I request (because I don't have the power to do anything else) that posts be confined to those seeking or imparting why the movies and/or series after ST-TMP deviate so much from TOS that they feel like a different continuity entirely. I request that anyone wanting to challenge compartmentalizing 1966-1979 continuity, do so in their own thread.

If anyone isn't sure how to start their own thread, PM me and I'll walk you through it.

 

[A beaker full of death]

I just don't understand the question. Each episode was pretty much its own production. Same for each movie, though II-IV were pretty much an arc.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The movies diverged because the Gene R that put together TMP was not the same Gene R that created TOS. Then Paramount hired a guy who was definitely not any Gene R to make TWOK and some other ST movies. Then Gene R created TNG, but that Gene R was not the Gene R who created TOS either. ( and neither were his succesors). Hell when Gene C took over TOS it diverged from Gene R's vision as well.

 

[StarryEyed]

I just don't understand the question. Each episode was pretty much its own production. Same for each movie, though II-IV were pretty much an arc.

Well, many TOS fans admit to enjoying some movies (or at least elements of them) and some TNG episodes but still cannot reconcile them as being part of the same fictional universe TOS inhabits. I'm trying to get a feel for what they see as incompatible.

You say that each episode is its own production and that is true but you see the James T. Kirk in Spock's Brain as the same one in City on the Edge of Forever, right? If Kirk in the latter episode were asked about Edith Keeler, you wouldn't expect him to reply, "Edith and Edith. What is Edith?" Because it's the same Kirk, right?

Some TOS fans seem to feel that if you took the JTK in ST-TWOK aside and asked him about Edith Keeler, he'd look at you as if you had asked him about Paris Hilton. Different Kirk in a different universe.

I'm trying to get a feel for why some TOS fans feel that ST-TWOK and after are incompatible with TOS.

 

[StarryEyed]

The movies diverged because the Gene R that put together TMP was not the same Gene R that created TOS. Then Paramount hired a guy who was definitely not any Gene R to make TWOK and some other ST movies. Then Gene R created TNG, but that Gene R was not the Gene R who created TOS either. ( and neither were his succesors). Hell when Gene C took over TOS it diverged from Gene R's vision as well.

Well that doesn't say anything about the content of the later products. The GR that created ST-TMP wasn't the same GR that created TOS either.

When you watched ST-TWOK, what made you think it was a different fictional universe than the one TOS took place in?

 

[Warped9]

I once made a looong post about this very thing some years ago. I should try to dig it up.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The movies diverged because the Gene R that put together TMP was not the same Gene R that created TOS. Then Paramount hired a guy who was definitely not any Gene R to make TWOK and some other ST movies. Then Gene R created TNG, but that Gene R was not the Gene R who created TOS either. ( and neither were his succesors). Hell when Gene C took over TOS it diverged from Gene R's vision as well.

Well that doesn't say anything about the content of the later products. The GR that created ST-TMP wasn't the same GR that created TOS either.When you watched ST-TWOK, what made you think it was a different fictional universe than the one TOS took place in

That's what I said. "the movies diverged because the Gene R that put together TMP was not the same Gene R that created TOS."

And it says a lot about the content. Gene had different ideas and experiences by 1979 than he had in 1964. Those influenced how TOS and TMP ( and later TNG) were made. In TMP there was a major in universe shift in design and technology. One that seemingly happend in about two years. There was also a shift in tone. Similarly there was a shift between TMP and TWOK as well. ( a shift backwards in some cases). TNG works better as a sequel to TMP than it does to TOS or the TOS movies. So one could group TMP and the 24thC shows as one continuity. TOS as another. ENT works with the TMP/24thC shows better than it does with TOS or the TOS movies, so thats another continuity.

 

[Lord Garth]

TOS is my favorite series but I don't reject everything afterward, so I might not be who you're looking for to give you an answer but I'll cut-and-paste something I posted back in 2006.

.
.
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This somewhat of an abstract concept but it's worth running by. Taking a page from what I learned back when I was in college, say all P's are Q's. If that's true, it doesn't necessarily mean the reverse: all Q's are P's.

Likewise, all Modern Trek is connected to Classic Trek but not all Classic Trek is connected to Modern Trek.

Star Trek would denote Star Trek as it was in 1966-1969, or 1964-1969. TOS denotes how the elements of the series have been adapated into The Franchise.

For example:

In Star Trek, there are no women captains. In TOS, there are but we never saw them.

In Star Trek, another name for Vulcan is Vulcanis. In TOS, it's always Vulcan.

In Star Trek, the Enterprise is Starship Class, in TOS, it's Constitution Class.

In Star Trek, it's debatable whether or not the series is set 200 or 300 years in the future, in TOS, it's set from 2266-2269.

In Star Trek, WWIII takes place in the 1990's. In TOS, the Eugenics Wars are seperate and less prominant than WWIII which now occurs in the middle of the 21st Century.

But either way you look at it the episodes largely happened as they did, there was a Captain Kirk in command of the the Enterprise, there was a Khan, etcetera.

Thinking about it also makes me think about about how a lot this is also nitpicking, so don't bother pointing out what I already know, but if you're wondering how I can take a stance about how the series was originally meant to be and also talk about how it should fit in relation to everything else, this is how I do it.

If you ever read comics, I'd spin it as Earth 1 and Earth 2 with "Star Trek" being Earth 2 and "TOS" being Earth 1.

Either way, you get the idea. Agree? Disagree? Want what I'm smoking?

 

[StarryEyed]

The movies diverged because the Gene R that put together TMP was not the same Gene R that created TOS. Then Paramount hired a guy who was definitely not any Gene R to make TWOK and some other ST movies. Then Gene R created TNG, but that Gene R was not the Gene R who created TOS either. ( and neither were his succesors). Hell when Gene C took over TOS it diverged from Gene R's vision as well.

Well that doesn't say anything about the content of the later products. The GR that created ST-TMP wasn't the same GR that created TOS either.When you watched ST-TWOK, what made you think it was a different fictional universe than the one TOS took place in

That's what I said. "the movies diverged because the Gene R that put together TMP was not the same Gene R that created TOS."

And it says a lot about the content. Gene had different ideas and experiences by 1979 than he had in 1964. Those influenced how TOS and TMP Z( and later TNG) were made. In TMP there was a major in universe shift in design and technology. One that seemingly happend in about two years. There was also a shift in tone. Similarly there was a shift between TMP and TWOK as well. ( a shift backwards in some cases). TNG works better as a sequel to TMP than it does to TOS or the TOS movies. So one could group TMP and the 24thC shows as one continuity. TOS as another. ENT works with the TMP/24thC shows better than it does with TOS or the TOS movies, so thats another continuity.

There was a definite change in the feel of the tech between TOS and ST-TMP. Was that a big deal for you?

I'm not sure what you meant by a change in "tone" and I won't unless you elaborate - especially since you say there was such a shift between TOS and ST-TMP and another one between ST-TMP and ST-TWOK. I think you might be talking about the general atmosphere or mood they set up.

I personally felt that the background music on TOS and ST-TMP set a mood of mystery and ominous foreboding. Sometimes the latter movies set that same mood but seldom.

 

[Warped9]

I can rationalize a great deal within TOS to make it work with an overall coherence. Later it gets trickier.

TAS diverged from TOS mostly in how it the Enterprise was depicted: more elaborate sets, oversized hangar deck and shuttlecraft, an alternate exit on the bridge and such. Other than that I can't think of too much where TAS contradicted what TOS established other than perhaps the Earth/Kzinti wars and those conflicts could be squeezed in there somewhere.

TMP diverged mostly in how it looked. And that could have been fixed with a reference that set TMP a few more years later than two plus years after the 5-year mission.

After that the divergences start getting bigger.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

Are some TOS purists dismissive of many of the movies (and also DS9, in particular) because there seemed to be a larger amount of time spent telling stories in which Star Fleet (or the Enterprise, in particular) is involved in more militaristic pursuits, rather than scientific exploration as compared to TOS episodes?

I am really curious about this. Is this a big reason that big TOS fans think later Treks lost their way?

Also, I think that the humor is pretty awful and heavy handed in some of the later TOS movies, compared to more subtle humor in TOS episodes. The humor seemed very forced and not natural.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

Also, TOS did not explore too much about the characters' pasts- people from their pasts, in particular (Except for a good amount of onscreen time with Spock's past and Vulcan).

Compare this to the soap opera that TNG became (do not get me wrong, I do like TNG).... Picard's brother, Picard's archeology prof, Geordi's Dad, Geordi's Mom, Worf's brother, Worf's "ex"-lover, Worf's step-parents, Wor's step-brother, Worf's son, Deana's Mom, Riker's trombone instructor..... (we could do this all night!). Maybe some folks did not care for all the time devoted to these types of personal stories- when the crew could be out trying to reason with "intellectual carrots" instead!

 

[StarryEyed]

...TAS diverged from TOS mostly in how it the Enterprise was depicted: more elaborate sets, oversized hangar deck and shuttlecraft, an alternate exit on the bridge and such. Other than that I can't think of too much where TAS contradicted what TOS established other than perhaps the Earth/Kzinti wars and those conflicts could be squeezed in there somewhere.

TMP diverged mostly in how it looked...

After that the divergences start getting bigger.

Yeah, TAS retconned the ship a little bit. I think the single entrance to the bridge was widely criticized as unrealistic in all the "behind the scenes" Trek books of the early-mid seventies so they took that to heart when they made TAS. Most of the other interior shots concerned engineering - again a retconn but this one has its roots in the fact that GR could never have convinced Paramount to build engineering as he envisioned it - way too expensive.

I'm surprised you mentioned the Earth/Kzinti wars (four of them!) as an afterthought to different ship interiors because that is an ENORMOUS retconn, easily equal to the horrendous Temporal Cold War and Xindi War on Enterprise - not that I defend either. Is the look and feel of the ship and other ships of the era of high importance to you?

As you say, TMP mostly diverged on how it looked. The change here was dramatic. Thankfully, they presented it in-universe as a redesigned, almost totally different ship. The ship in TOS had a rather stark interior while the refit was rather plush. The take on engineering was a bit different. Were there any paradigm changes that bugged you or were you just jarred by the new look?

 

[Shatnertage]

To me, there always seems to be just enough to tie things together that I couldn't really draw a line and say, "this is a whole new universe." Sure, TMP and TWOK look and feel very different from TOS, but they're telling the same basic story with most of the same characters.

As far as TAS, it's easy to say that Arex was always on the Enterprise, he was just working the night shift, although clearly the freedom of the animation gave them the ability to (try to) depict plenty of things we could never see in live action.

TNG had TOS characters in it, and enough references to make it clear this was the same universe. DS9 and VOY are clearly in the same universe as TNG, so that ties everything back to TOS.

I can appreciate that ENT is tougher to fit in for some people, since though it's definitely Star Trek it doesn't have much in common stylistically with the earlier series. But the basic idea--the crew of a ship named Enterprise--is still there, and there are plenty of attempts to reference the continuity (which many fans see as disregarding it) even before season 4.

It's hard to separate out differences in the styles of story-telling and the look of the show from the universe they're set in, and I don't think there's ever going to be a way to do it that's not arbitrary, on some level. For me, that familiar pinging bridge sound you hear in the first seconds of STXI says, "this is set in the same universe that TOS was." Others obviously don't feel so, and I can appreciate that.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well that doesn't say anything about the content of the later products. The GR that created ST-TMP wasn't the same GR that created TOS either.When you watched ST-TWOK, what made you think it was a different fictional universe than the one TOS took place in

That's what I said. "the movies diverged because the Gene R that put together TMP was not the same Gene R that created TOS."

And it says a lot about the content. Gene had different ideas and experiences by 1979 than he had in 1964. Those influenced how TOS and TMP Z( and later TNG) were made. In TMP there was a major in universe shift in design and technology. One that seemingly happend in about two years. There was also a shift in tone. Similarly there was a shift between TMP and TWOK as well. ( a shift backwards in some cases). TNG works better as a sequel to TMP than it does to TOS or the TOS movies. So one could group TMP and the 24thC shows as one continuity. TOS as another. ENT works with the TMP/24thC shows better than it does with TOS or the TOS movies, so thats another continuity.

There was a definite change in the feel of the tech between TOS and ST-TMP. Was that a big deal for you?

I'm not sure what you meant by a change in "tone" and I won't unless you elaborate - especially since you say there was such a shift between TOS and ST-TMP and another one between ST-TMP and ST-TWOK. I think you might be talking about the general atmosphere or mood they set up.

I personally felt that the background music on TOS and ST-TMP set a mood of mystery and ominous foreboding. Sometimes the latter movies set that same mood but seldom.

Well the switch from handheld coms to wristbands was a dramatic shift. (one that was changed back for TWOK) Never really warmed to those. The shift in the color palette went too far from TOS. Grays, Beige, white and slate very bland.

The tonal shift is that they took the whole thing way too seriously, it verged on maudlin at times. It wanted to be "important" and "deep" and but it was so obviously heavy handed it hurt. Yeah, TOS was a serious drama but it wasn't a funeral. Only De Kelley's McCoy managed to brighten things up. And he was just about the only character I "recognized" from TOS. Gene and Wise seemed to be suffering from 2001 envy. Star Trek is not2001.And it shouldn't try to be. "The Changling" was a better take on the story. TMP was an inaction drama. TOS was an action advention drama.

In TWOK, they shifted to a more balanced tone. Closer to what TOS had: an action drama with some comedy now and then. At the same time the look became more militaristic and nautical. ( more so than TOS)

The tech got a bit clunkier. The communicators almost looked like something from "the Cage".

I'm not into soundtracks so I can't comment much on the music. If fact, the only time in a Trek film I really noticed the music and the film really working together to create a mood was the George Kirk death/Jim Kirk birth scene in ST09. Other than that its just neoclassical muzak to me. Oh I like theTMP theme though.

 

[THX1138]

The movies were way too "self-aware", if that makes any sense. The corny little inside jokes were painful --and pandering.

Another thing that seperates TOS from the movies for me is, um... hairpiece styling.

 

[Warped9]

The movies were way too "self-aware", if that makes any sense. The corny little inside jokes were painful --and pandering.

That's a good point and it was tolerable early on then it just got worse and worse.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

The movies were way too "self-aware", if that makes any sense. The corny little inside jokes were painful --and pandering.

"Self-aware"- Yes. That is a good way to put it and I, too, agree.

 

[Shatnertage]

The movies were way too "self-aware", if that makes any sense. The corny little inside jokes were painful --and pandering.

It really paralleled what went on with Doctor Who at about the same time.

 

[number6]

Continuity diverged from The Cage and continued to diverge for the next 45 years.. It's what happens when stories and characters are allowed to develop and evolve.