What's your take on Section 31?
- Thread starter Danoz
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I think they're a pussified version of the CIA.
I just don't get the point of Section 31. Is it so the writers can show us the Federation isn't as good and noble as we had been led to believe? If so, they should have made S31 an official part of the Federation government instead of some bizarre secret society/conspiracy. What is it that S31 does that Starfleet Intelligence doesn't already do? As far as I know, the only thing S31 did was attempt genocide and they couldn't even do that right! They clearly aren't very good at intelligence gathering otherwise the Breen raid on San Francisco would not have happened. My take on Section 31: utterly useless.
basically this. Why does Starfleet need a super-duper-secret organization with magic decoder ring-stuff? They already have Starfleet Intelligence and rogue admirals willing to do underhanded things to put the UFP ahead.
The whole "it's so seeecret that no one even can confirm it's existence" is just silly kids stuff.
it just seemed like a too self-conscious way of making Star Trek "darker."
I loved the idea. The Federation puts up this image of Utopian society with all the ethics in the Universe, but in practice there will come a time when dirtier work needs to be done to protect its interests. The execution of the idea though needed some work than what we've seen on DS9.
They're kindda like the CIA and Soviet Union secret police. That's why America needs to get rid of the CIA. 
We shouldn't be spying on other nations, especially our allies, and trying to start wars in other countries, period! If what they are doing is so righteous, then why hide the truths. People lie because they know what they are doing is dishonest and wrong. If you haven't done anything wrong, why not just tell the truth and clear the whole mess up so there are no hard feelings? We need to learn to trust each other and have an opened communication and good dialogue, if peach is what you want.
We shouldn't be spying on other nations, especially our allies, and trying to start wars in other countries, period! If what they are doing is so righteous, then why hide the truths. People lie because they know what they are doing is dishonest and wrong. If you haven't done anything wrong, why not just tell the truth and clear the whole mess up so there are no hard feelings? We need to learn to trust each other and have an opened communication and good dialogue, if peach is what you want.
They're kindda like the CIA and Soviet Union secret police. That's why America needs to get rid of the CIA.
um, was this post supposed to be a satirical take on this kind of a utopian world view?
Section 31 was a terrible idea just to make the Star Trek universe more "dark" and leave the optimistic future behind.
GR's original idea was optimistic. Section 31 is the exact opposite. Section 31 makes GR sad.
Gene Roddenberry also believed there would be no interpersonal conflict in the future and that children would except death with a stiff upper lip.
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If by "dark" you mean realistic, then I agree.
They're kindda like the CIA and Soviet Union secret police. That's why America needs to get rid of the CIA.
um, was this post supposed to be a satirical take on this kind of a utopian world view?
Um, well, my point is that a lot of people think to change their enemies' point of view is to become devious yourselves. What a lot of people don't understand is if you treat people like they're criminal and wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt and the respect they deserve, then you will always make enemies and drives everyone away and make them hate you. This is why it's better if you start acting like a normal human being and not resort to espionage, starting a war, and killing people in another country. The problem is espionage and killing people war really pisses people off. It's like you ask other countries to believe that your ideal and way of life is great and that they should follow you and trust you, while behind their back, you spy on them and use the intelligence to start a revolution in their country to bring down the communists, or whatever. Do you think anyone would listen? No! This us why I said America should stay out of foreign affairs and remain neutral. More people would listen if we don't spy on them and use the intelligence to cause harm to their countries and people. Why can the United States remain neutral like Switzerland? From their point of view, which everybody is entitled to, they think they're right. How would you like it if they come over here and starting bombing this country because they think you're wrong? We are not going to get anywhere until we start trusting each other. The truth shall set you free! Maybe we should consider making a deal with the devil instead... [chuckle] Keep shooting them until they listen! They're kindda remind me of the Feminists, who make all men out to be inferior to women and that men should act like women. The CIA and Section 31 think other countries are evil and cant' do anything right and needs to be told what to do and how to behave. And what those feminists don't understand is: you can't expect men to act like women...otherwise, go date a crossed dresser. Maybe the find them more attractive! J/K [laugh]
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Section 31. Area 51.
I very much agree with this. While I think it was initially a good idea to show that Federation's freedoms did come with a price, but I don't think I've gone more than a week here without seeing two or three Section 31 conspiracies. I think I even saw someone post that Kirk becoming captain of the Enterprise was orchestrated by Section 31 and that he was really a longtime agent...
GR's original idea was optimistic. Section 31 is the exact opposite. Section 31 makes GR sad.
Well, since Roddenberry had some truly messed up ideas, like no interpersonal conflict, nobody fearing death, everyone being bisexual, men wearing dresses, cures for the common cold, etc..., I have no problem with Section 31 making him sad.
But as for Section 31 itself - a necessary evil that went too far.
Some people are criminals and don't deserve respect, only justice. Respect is earned not given. The same applies to countries.
And, you will also make allies and show people who your friends are. You, as a country, earn their respect. (but not their love)
A pretty accurate description of how the free world won the cold war, bravo. There were many factor, many forces involved, and intelligence was one of them.
One of the reasons America is involve in foreign affairs is because we're is a maritime and merchant nation. One of events that "dragged" America on to the world stage was our war against the Barbary Coast pirates, who were interfering with our maritime trade. You believe America should have sat out first and second world wars, the cold war, and others as well?
Because of Switzerland's foreign policy position, they make for a lousy ally.
Like America's opposition of Imperial Japan's conquest of South East Asia and the Pacific Islands resulted in the attack on Pearl Harbor?.
Psychiatrists often can help with feelings of homophobia and other mental disorders.
I didn't find Section 31 realistic, I found it absurd that a regular bureaucratic organization like Starfleet, that already had special operations divisions and Starfleet Intelligence, would need a group that was so secret that no one even knew of its existence.
military, or quasi-military organizations just don't work that way. In the Romulan Empire, folks know of the existence of the Tal Shiar. In the Cardassian Empire, folks know of the Obsidian Order.
the stuff we see Sec. 31 doing would be the same stuff Starfleet Intelligence could be doing. They didn't need to introduce some new comic book-esque group into the Trekverse.
I never thought for a moment that S31 was affiliated with Starfleet (though doubtless there are some entanglements). Indeed, Sloan claimed that S31 was established under the Federation charter, but he never claimed they were under Starfleet oversight. Can I ask on what basis you're making this connection?
To my mind S31 does the things that Starfleet might consider doing but would generally reject on principle. Developing Thalaron bombs, deliberately sabotaging a potentially hostile race's attempts to develop FTL drive, etc...
To my mind S31 does the things that Starfleet might consider doing but would generally reject on principle. Developing Thalaron bombs, deliberately sabotaging a potentially hostile race's attempts to develop FTL drive, etc...
According to Memory Alpha online, Sec. 31 was established under a Starfleet charter. Nevertheless, even if you want to switch UFP for Starfleet in my earlier post, from a fictional universe perspective, they didn't need to introduce Sec. 31, if they'd wanted to show a "darker" UFP, just have Starfleet Intelligence do the same things they would have been doing. My objection to Sec. 31 is the whole "secret organization" silliness.
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