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What is the exact difference between replicating and transporting?

at Quark's

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I mean, apart from the fact that the 'original' is 'disassembled'.

- If you can't replicate latinum (DS9) then wouldn't it be impossible to transport it as well? If it possible, why can't you replicate it? Or is it not a technical but a legal restriction ?

- Could you replicate living persons ? (on purpose, that is, not because of freak transporter accidents. I'd understand that they wouldn't do it because of all ethical implications... but would it be possible?).
 
Isn't it possible to tell if something is replicated or not, though, hence replicated latinum not being legal tender? Food is certainly just different enough that people can tell the difference.
 
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I think a major issue is replication is much lower resolution, meaning the data file is small enough to be stored, unlike transporter patterns.
 
We have never heard it mentioned that there would exist a substance, object or other that could not be replicated. Things like latinum, dilithium or other supposed valuables are no exception there.

We probably have to assume that there is a different cost on the replication of different items, in terms of processing power, sheer energy, and possible raw materials used per item or kilogram. Thus, replicating of latinum is a non-starter because replicated latinum would cost more than it is worth. That's more or less the logic behind nobody today mass-producing counterfeit money, too: all safeguards can be bypassed (the authentic bills were printed by somebody in the first place!), but it's just plain not worth all the effort.

It would then follow that living persons could be replicated, too - it would simply be awfully expensive. An industrial replicator (one of those rare things that the Maquis deemed worth stealing from Starfleet in "For the Cause") might have to spend months doing it, say. We do know that living tissue can be replicated for medical purposes. TNG "Ethics" and VOY "Emanations" show this being done, the latter as a matter of routine by a damaged starship stranded far away from the usual resources. On the other hand, there are practical limits, and the same technology that in VOY "Emanations" produced working spinal matter for a random alien failed in VOY "Phage" to produce a working lung for Neelix. Perhaps some other UFP replicator in a well-equipped hospital could have done that lung - but it might still have been cheaper and faster to produce it using some other technology, such as cloning.

As for the difference between replicating and transporting, the latter seems to require an original that is the same as the product. The former creates the product either out of pure energy or then out of an original that is different from the product (say, a barrelful of hydrocarbons might become a sandwich). We have some evidence that things are created out of pure energy on occasion. In TNG "Night Terrors", the E-D is said to normally possess the ability to reproduce elements; if this happened by taking one element and turning it into another in a replicator, the proper term would be "transmuting", not "reproducing".

Then again, we have seen an ordinary food replicator turned into a transporter, in DS9 "Visionary". The two devices might really be one and the same, and the replicator just modifies the signal much more extensively than the transporter does: hydrocarbons to sandwiches, rather than infected lieutenants into healthy ones or armed Klingons into disarmed ones.

Isn't it possible to tell if something is replicated or not?

We don't know. Some people claim they can taste the difference, but they may well be lying to themselves, and would fail a blind test.

Certainly it's difficult to tell a difference for real in, say, TNG "Data's Day" where a lot of forensics effort is needed before our heroes can declare that the blood they found was faked. But by the same token, it's difficult to fake things so that they would pass muster in all cases - even when it's the all-powerful Romulan Tal Shiar doing the forging.

The mirror case comes from DS9 "In the Pale Moonlight" where Sisko tried to forge a datastick, using the best experts he could find, and a single Romulan with his portable resources was able to declare it a fake. Then again, that Romulan may have been lying - he didn't need to prove the thing was a fake in order to declare it a fake.

Usually, it doesn't matter. In DS9 "Rivals", Quark tells the food replicator to replicate an alien device, and the food replicator obliges, even creating enlarged versions thereof. The results are fully functional, even though neither Quark nor anybody else in the Federation (least of all the people who built that replicator) knew how the alien things worked! So most of the time, standard resolution is sufficient...

Timo Saloniemi
 
In ST:TNG's "The Mind[']s Eye", Data used computer scans to indicate chips in the shuttle had been replciated, likely by Romulans. Evidently replication does leaves behind some kind of trace.
 
Or then it just gets complex things wrong unless extra effort is put into it.

Say, you can easily forge coins. Forging bills is more difficult because even if you create a perfect copy of a real bill, you also need to fool the system and create a new, fake serial number. The replicator might be able to produce very good facsimiles of Federation isolinear chips, but they'd be too perfect, too identical - like copying the same bill over and over again. Such things wouldn't stop the replicator from making a 100% accurate copy of, say, Milon Venus or the sandwich on your plate.

If you were up to no good, and needed to fake a hundred sandwiches, you might not have the time and the resources to make them individualistic, non-identical, down to the molecular level. That wouldn't stop you from enjoying your hundred sandwiches like you would enjoy "real" ones, or your victim from being fooled by one of them (until he found a second one and realized they were too similar).

The other alternative, that replication always leaves a "trace", is a possibility - but not a likely one, or these things would have been revealed much more easily to our intrepid investigators in, say, "Data's Day".

Timo Saloniemi
 
I've always thought of the transporter (assuming that it only transmits information, not matter) as basically a really high-definition scanner, combined with a really high-definition replicator, and huge and extremely fast memory buffers to account for the huge amount of data that has to be transferred back and forth between these two subsystems. Oh, and of course some kind of emitter that can transfer that information to another location.

Then, in theory it should be possible to disconnect the 'scanner' part from the 'replicator' part , so that after scanning the original (not necessarily at the same time disassembling it with the 'replicator' part) and downloading the contents of the pattern buffer into more conventional and permanent computer memory, it should be possible to pump out multiple perfect replicas with the replicator part at any time later.

Of course, that idea wouldn't hold up if there is an additional component to the transporter process, one that cannot be captured by information alone (or if the transporter process works in a basically different way )..
 
By having the transporter just "phase" the victim at one end and "re-phase" him at the other, two major hurdles are avoided:

a) Much less information to scan, store and transmit. If you don't hack the victim to infinitesimally small pieces, but rather keep him more or less intact (just "phased", whatever that is), you don't have to keep record of those small pieces, just an assembly instruction for the more coarsely parceled transportee. Think of the ways of getting a LEGO building from your place to a place a few towns over: disassembling it into individual pieces calls for massive assembly instructions but makes mailing easier, while just splitting it into chunks is a big advantage instructions-wise but makes mailing more difficult.

b) Much less energy spent (even if it can be recovered at the end of the process). In theory, scanning, disassembling into energy, and reassembling into matter ought to involved energies of E=mcc magnitude, which would make every person a mighty city-busting weapon of mass destruction. Even opening all the electromagnetic bonds between a person's molecules could require A-bomb levels of energy. But if "phasing" can sidestep all that somehow, and just slip the person into some other realm where travel through walls and empty space is equally easy, but without disassembling him, the process becomes theoretically safer, and perhaps also practically easier to arrange for.

Yet if the transporter assembles people out of a "phased matter stream" (as the official technobabble goes) rather than out of an abstract data pattern plus raw matter or raw energy, then copying becomes impossible. Except for certain rare circumstances where the laws of conservation of mass etc. are temporarily sidestepped. Weirder things could happen in the Trek universe...

Timo Saloniemi
 
We have never heard it mentioned that there would exist a substance, object or other that could not be replicated.
Code of Honor, Beverly could not replicate the drug they had been sent to obtain, even though she had a sample.

:)
 
Implicitly, a lot of stuff is unreplicable in the sense that our heroes can't do it when they need to. But that's not categorical. Lots of other medical substances have been replicated, others have been difficult to obtain, but nothing has been established about why these particular circumstances did not allow for the replication.

What I mean is that it has never been stated "X is unreplicable". What has been said is "I can't replicate X", either with a "because" or without. That is, there is no dialogue that would put the blame on the object of replication or the technique of replication explicitly - it's literally circumstantial all.

Which is just my way of wiggling out of the major inconsistency of it being perfectly possible to replicate spinal nerves and intricate tastes, and then some basic chemical mixture suddenly presents a problem. It shouldn't be categorical, it should be a case of tough luck with circumstances.

Timo Saloniemi
 
By having the transporter just "phase" the victim at one end and "re-phase" him at the other, two major hurdles are avoided:

a) Much less information to scan, store and transmit. If you don't hack the victim to infinitesimally small pieces, but rather keep him more or less intact (just "phased", whatever that is), you don't have to keep record of those small pieces, just an assembly instruction for the more coarsely parceled transportee. Think of the ways of getting a LEGO building from your place to a place a few towns over: disassembling it into individual pieces calls for massive assembly instructions but makes mailing easier, while just splitting it into chunks is a big advantage instructions-wise but makes mailing more difficult.

b) Much less energy spent (even if it can be recovered at the end of the process). In theory, scanning, disassembling into energy, and reassembling into matter ought to involved energies of E=mcc magnitude, which would make every person a mighty city-busting weapon of mass destruction. Even opening all the electromagnetic bonds between a person's molecules could require A-bomb levels of energy. But if "phasing" can sidestep all that somehow, and just slip the person into some other realm where travel through walls and empty space is equally easy, but without disassembling him, the process becomes theoretically safer, and perhaps also practically easier to arrange for.

Yet if the transporter assembles people out of a "phased matter stream" (as the official technobabble goes) rather than out of an abstract data pattern plus raw matter or raw energy, then copying becomes impossible. Except for certain rare circumstances where the laws of conservation of mass etc. are temporarily sidestepped. Weirder things could happen in the Trek universe...

Timo Saloniemi

Interesting explanation. It could perhaps also partly explain why there aren't transporter platforms needed at both origin and destination points.

However, I'm then starting to wonder what the 'pattern buffers' are storing exactly (even four times redundantly, if I recall O'Brien correctly), and how they can analyse that a transporter signal has '91% integrity'. Also, we'd still need to explain how it is possible that in some cases, there are transporter duplicates ...

EDIT: Located the original dialogue.
BARCLAY: Yes, but... you realize if these imaging scanners are off by even a thousandth of a percent --
O'BRIEN (right back at him): That's why each pad has four redundant scanners. If any one scanner fails, the other three take over.

So it says that scanners are redundant. Still, they have to be extremely precise which leads me to suspect that it is not just a 'simple' matter of phasing but also of obtaining very precise information.
 
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I doubt Ferenginar would have a law against replicating latinum, but maybe very wealthy Ferengi paid the replicator companies to make it impossible to replicate it.

It's never mentioned in the show whether latinum has intrinsic value the way gold was or whether it's representative of wealth the way dollar bills are. I suspect the former as Ferengi society isn't big on regulation, and if latinum was representative wealth, Ferengi would be more suspicious of its true value. Also it's been mentioned in some cases that things can be made out of latinum or plated with it. (Quark tempting Odo with a latinum bucket). Which implies latinum does in fact have intrinsic value.

The show is very inconsistent about what can be replicated and what can't, and it usually comes down to "If this could be replicated my story wouldn't work so let's say it can't". But you could also possibly suggest that the reason latinum became so valued is that when the replicator was invented it was one of the only things that remained rare.
 
maybe very wealthy Ferengi paid the replicator companies to make it impossible to replicate it.
That's calling for trouble, as it seems even Cardassians have replicator tech down pat, and could use their own machines to circumvent any safeguards built into Ferengi machines.

Or did Cardassia buy replicators from the Ferengi? I wouldn't wonder a bit, as they appear to be next-door neighbors in some maps glimpsed onscreen. We've heard of there being Romulan tech or illegal copies thereof aboard DS9 ("Dax"), but there could also be Ferengi tech there - perhaps the price of freedom and security for this less than combat-ready species that has to live in the shadow of the conquest-minded Union! Cardassia would be on its knees if the Ferengi didn't provide constant repair services for that tech, just like the Foundation defeated its enemies by virtue of selling washing machines and repair services thereto...

Then again, Ferenginar would be on its knees once encountering the Federation, whose replicator-makers can't be bribed because they already have it all. Even if the UFP government agreed to doing the Ferengi bidding (and they probably wouldn't, as Starfleet considers them an enemy in early TNG still), the UFP would be teeming with private expertise that could create latinum replicators and thus unlimited latinum.

...latinum does in fact have intrinsic value.
Those examples are quite close to how gold would have "intrinsic value" - as a convenient material in jewelry. But that value is completely fictional, as jewelers today have no need for the extra-soft, extra-malleable resource: they can now bend steel to much more pleasing shapes and textures. Gold even in "practical applications" is valuable only by convention, and only an extremely small fraction of its price can be explained by modern practical applications such as conductivity in electric and thermal machinery or chemical inertness.

Also, latinum in room temperature is reputed to be a liquid, as in "Who Mourns for Morn?". Making jewelry out of that must be a challenge, perhaps explaining the value. Or then it's like making brooches out of hundred-dollar bills...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Captain Picard felt the replicators did not do the dish justice, and always tries to keep some on hand. (TNG: "Deja Q")
 
Replicating essentially creates something out of "nothing", and transporting does not.

When you use the transporter, your matter is converted into energy and back again. With replication, they're just converting energy into matter.
 
What I mean is that it has never been stated "X is unreplicable". What has been said is "I can't replicate X", either with a "because" or without. That is, there is no dialogue that would put the blame on the object of replication or the technique of replication explicitly - it's literally circumstantial all.

Timo Saloniemi

Perhaps some dialogue isn't needed. Surely, for example, the substance being transported by shuttle in the opening of "The Most Toys" cannot be safely replicated. Judging by the size of the explosion from the little amount Data was transporting, even trying to replicate a small amount could lead to deadly consequences.


I seem to vaguely recall -- maybe somebody here can help me out -- that something was said about certain things not being able to be replciated because of complex inner parts


And Voyager seems to make us think that torpedoes can't be replicated.
 
Could you replicate living persons ? (on purpose, that is, not because of freak transporter accidents. I'd understand that they wouldn't do it because of all ethical implications... but would it be possible?).

I would guess that yes, it would be theoretically possible for the transporter to do that. If the transporter can split Kirk into two in "The Enemy Within" and Riker into two in "Second Chances", then I'm guessing that some ambitious scientist might find a way to perfect the process and make full duplicates of people.

And considering that both Kirk & Riker had no idea that they'd been duplicated until they each ran into their doubles, maybe someone out there already has perfected the process and we just don't know about it... :devil:
 
And Voyager seems to make us think that torpedoes can't be replicated.

I always figured that was because at the time Janeway said they had thirty whatever torpedoes and no way to get more it was because they couldn't risk using up their antimatter reserves without knowing if/how they'd get more, not that the parts couldn't be replicated and assembled (or replicated whole)
 
And Voyager seems to make us think that torpedoes can't be replicated.

I always figured that was because at the time Janeway said they had thirty whatever torpedoes and no way to get more it was because they couldn't risk using up their antimatter reserves without knowing if/how they'd get more, not that the parts couldn't be replicated and assembled (or replicated whole)

I believe the quote was "...and no way to replace them after they're gone!". I must say that in my ears, that sounds like it was just plain impossible, not only 'would be too expensive considering our circumstances'. But I suppose it's open to interpretation.

However, your interpretation would be logical otherwise. It could also explain how they fired at least 93 of these 38 torpedoes (according to ex astris scientia); they found sufficient additional resources to replace them after all in later seasons.
 
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