What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Amasov, Jun 20, 2020.

  1. Dee1891

    Dee1891 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I never had a problem with Bajor not joining the Federation. If the Bajorans had wanted to be independent on their own . . . fine. But I had problems with other aspects of the show's 6th and 7th seasons - including the handling of Section 31, the lack of consequences for Section 31's attempted genocide against the Dominion or Sisko/Garak's deception to draw the Romulans into the war, Gul Dukat's and Erzi Dax.
     
  2. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Federation wouldn't have interfered with Bajor, but if they were Federation members and another entity was after the Federation, Bajor is just as much a target as the core worlds.

    It's exactly why Sisko urged the Bajoran government to sign the non-aggression pact with the Dominion in "CALL TO ARMS".

    Sometimes, it's better to just be a friend than to be a full blown member of something. Otherwise, you risk being a target just by being a member.
     
  3. Tallguy

    Tallguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    She's a Trill! It's what they DO. And for the first time ever the audience was demonstrated what the realities of that are. WE had to deal with her being Dax but not Jadzia. It wasn't theoretical anymore.

    I'm very sorry for what happened to an actor that I liked. But the story possibility was terrific.
     
  4. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    It's also why he called a halt to them joining the Federation in "Rapture". He KNEW the Dominion would steamroll them when war came. But once the war ended, Bajor joining the Federation made sense again.
     
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  5. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Regarding Dax... we can't fault Behr on that one. That was between Berman and Farrell. Behr had to deal with the consequences of that fallout, and I can't really disagree with the decision to bring Ezri in... particularly since there was only one other female lead.

    And despite it being one episode later, it was really a new season... and in universe, 3 months had already passed.


    Regarding Section 31... on the surface, it does look like a misfire having them introduced directly before "IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT". But I actually think it was essential that Sisko be the one to invite Vreenak to the station... he had a very low opinion of Starfleet and their officers, but there were exceptions. Garak hinted at this when he told Sisko that he was sure Vreenak would come if Sisko invited him.

    And truthfully, given Sloan's prediction of the Romulans and the Federation vying for control of the Alpha Quadrant after the war (dialogue from "INTER ARMA ENIM SILENT LEGES"), I don't think it even occured to Section 31 to bring them into the war.
     
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  6. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    It wasn't about whether they'd think about it. It was that S31 was the Federation's designated organization for dirty work. So having Sisko doing said dirty work only one episode later didn't make sense.

    A better way was...
    1. Run "Pale Moonlight" first.
    2. Have Sloan explain to Bashir that after "the business with the Romulans", S31's higher-ups have decided they need a permanent presence on DS9. Sisko is too visible, but Bashir's perfect: he's highly intelligent, he knows how to keep secrets (his genetic enhancement), he likes to play James Bond, and he's friendly with Garak. It just makes so much more sense that way! :mad:
     
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  7. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Ferengi Alliance really wasn't transformed by one person.

    It took a minimum two to even get the ball rolling (Zek to provide the power to do anything at all and Ishka to provide the ideas) and after that it was actually Rom and Quark who convinced the guy from Sluggo cola by promising him record profits once women could buy things and the whole reason they were convincing that guy was that he was properly positioned to convince the rest of the high corporate muck-a-mucks of Ferenginar. Then all of them together combined with Zek had the power to make actual changes to Ferengi institutions. And once there was a legal legislature with real power, things just snowballed from there.

    It was a perfectly believable path towards change for Ferenginar, especially since it leaned heavily on manipulating the greed of anyone who might stand in its way (something we've seen Ferengi - especially the less bright/more bigoted ones - are singularly vulnerable to many, many times over). And also because it took years to actually accomplish the whole thing, which still didn't exactly make Ferengi society totally unrecognizable, either - profit remained of massive importance.
     
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  8. ananta

    ananta Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I’m fine with Bajor not joining the Federation. Subverted expectation was baked into DS9’s DNA. But I’m still annoyed the topic wasn’t even referenced at the end of the series. It’s as though the writers forgot about it after Rapture/Call to Arms.

    Admittedly, there were other more pressing issues by the end of the series. But narratively it’s just poor craftmanship setting up a major story issue at the start of the series and simply forgetting about it halfway through. They should have found a way to bookend it somehow. Even just a comment from Kira in one of the closing scenes. I still believe the writers were so focused on ending the war and resolving the character arcs that they possibly forgot about the Bajor issue. Of course they’ll say it’s deliberate, but……. Yeah.
     
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  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sure it does.

    Sisko doesn't trust Section 31. He barely trusts Garak to make this work. Sisko is someone who feels a need to control the circumstances to favor his outcome. So he does. He would not trust a proxy who might bungle it.
     
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  10. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And if Section 31, the organization that is designated for that kind of dirty work, didn't think of it, how would it have happened if Sisko and Garak didn't do the plan?

    And by the way, it was Garak that killed Vreenak... he came up with the idea to create the evidence in the first place, he is the one who suggested Tolar (and later killed him), he suggested Vreenak, and he was the one who planted the bomb. Sisko was an accessory to the murder, and he did bribe Quark to not press charges against Tolar. But a lot of this is Garak.

    Sisko was at a point of desperation because Betazed had just fallen to the Dominion... a key spot that was within arms reach of almost the entire core worlds of the Federation. It was at that point that Garak suggested creating the evidence, because he knew Sisko was at that desperation point.

    (I have long held the belief that Garak was already planning the fake evidence and the murder as soon as he said, "It may be a very messy and bloody business." If you look at Garak during that initial conversation in the Wardroom, you can see the wheels turning already. But Sisko did give him the exact reason why he needed Garak and couldn't do it alone... and Garak rightly pointed that out at the end when he said Sisko 'knew he wasn't capable of those things'. But Garak was. He was just waiting for that perfect moment to suggest the fake evidence... it did take several days between their initial conversation and the fall of Betazed before Garak told him about the plan. Plenty of time for him to get the ball rolling.)
     
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  11. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But that doesn't have anything to do with what you were saying. That was a specific instance. And a situation that had ended by the finale. At any other point it would have been infinitely better to be part of the Federation.
     
  12. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed that it's a different reason than what I said about it being inspiring. However, it's still being independent, whether for inspiration or merely for not being in someone's crosshairs.

    And even though the Dominion War ended, do you really think the Dominion would be the last big group that would want to take over the Federation and its members?
     
  13. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, it really was. Until Ishka started whispering in his ear, Zek found female equality unthinkable. ["Rules of Aquisition"]

    Actually, it really wasn't, because of the sheer magnitude of obstacles in the way. Here are three, in ascending order of severity.
    3. Out of 400 major businessmen on Ferenginar, one was willing to listen to the notion that females should have equal rights. That's 0.25% vs. 99.75%. The problem that 399 out of 400 of the most influential people in society still wanted Brunt in the office is never addressed.
    2. Among the ultimate consequences of females wearing clothes was that they would seek jobs. Just how, exactly, is a society going to double its job pool overnight?
    1. The big one is that there must have been a massive and deep rooted prejudice against women in Ferengi society. Otherwise, some other businessman would have done what Zek was trying to do long before. In addition to the uneducated and eminently exploitable workers, females wearing clothes means tens (maybe hundreds) of billions of articles of clothing being needed. Females being educated means the schools will pull in double the tuition. Females leaving the house means vehicle sales. Yet somehow, Ishka made that prejudice completely irrelevant.

    That being said, I understand that it was inevitable that women's rights were going to come to Ferenginar. And, it was NOT impossible to do just that and have it make sense. They just needed to have an existing, burgeoning women's rights movement in place. It really would have just required a few extra lines by Brunt, when he was trying to get Quark to ruin the Ishka/Zek romance. He mentions that Ferengi society is at a tipping point, and millions of females worldwide are already clamoring for a more equal society. If Ishka retains Zek's ear, she becomes the straw that breaks the camel's back. Revolution, yes, but set up by generations of evolution.

    But that brings up a new question... why didn't they? It's just the sort of skulduggery S31 would do. And DID do, in "Inter Arma".

    Yes. So it made sense for Bajor to be unallied right up until the war was over. So, season 8 would have shown how the peace unfolded: relief efforts in Cardassia, the Romulans discover the truth, changes in Klingon culture with warrior Martok replacing political Gowron. And, Bajor joins the Federation, with Colonel Kira playing a crucial role. And I like to think Sisko returns near the end, and retires to Bajor with his family.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2024
  14. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And who's to say the next big group will care whether Bajor is not a member? The next big threat might be someone who specifically seeks out weaker polities at first.
    Plus the next big thing might be on the other end of the Federation and Bajor as a member would never be touched by that war.
    If you look at the earlier seasons of TNG, you'd never know that the Cardassian-Federation war was happening.
     
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  15. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    While I laud the stuff that Ira & Co did fixing the Ferengi on DS9, I hate how little of a sense of scale there is. The Ferengi Alliance is supposed to come across as a minor interstellar power, and it feels like there's just one city (Ferenginar) which has only one small town. Quark not only knows Grand Negus Zek, and sees him semi-frequently, his mother starts "dating" Zek, and his brother eventually becomes Negus himself. This is just...nutty, presuming there are billions of Ferengi.

    Worf's arc also made the Klingons look kinda small and cheap, since he killed Chancellor Gowron himself, and then made his bestie Martok chancellor in his stead. But Ron Moore started writing this arc on TNG, and this was just the conclusion of it, so I don't blame DS9 for it.

    In their own ways, Sisko, Bashir, and Odo were also way, way too overpowered as characters, though it didn't really hurt the scale of the setting as much in those cases, save for the coincidence that so many special people happened to be jammed together on one space station.
     
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  16. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    Would this be a good time to mention Dukat, who winds up leading Cardassia?
     
  17. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I believe that Urban was the biggest TOS fan of the new cast, so I'd wager that that was his choice.
    I honestly never developed any emotional connection to the Enterprise-E. Partly because it never got as fixed in my mind as the original Enterprise from TOS, the refit from the movies, or the Enterprise-D from TNG (we honestly could've used a long look at it the way TMP did with the refit to really give us a feel for it), partly because I don't rewatch the TNG movies very much, and partly because the characters themselves never seemed particularly attached to it. Everyone in the films from FC to NEM seemed to treat it as just another ship, to the point where Picard even made a joke about there being lots of other letters in the alphabet. If the characters themselves are that cavalier about potentially losing their ship, why should I care one way or another?

    But for real, I don't think I could even sketch the Enterprise-E that accurately. That's how vaguely-defined it is in my mind.
    Insurrection is like one of the utterly forgettable episodes of TNG.
     
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  18. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    It would have been better if they had ended TNG with it.
    - Picard stays behind on Baku to make sure no one else tries to pull the same stuff the Badmiral did. And do some mambo in the process.
    - Riker and Troi get married. Riker takes over the Enterprise E. Data is his new Number One.
    - Geordi keeps his eyes. But Worf doesn't get any more pimples. You can decide for yourself what happens with Beverly's boobs.
    - And Movie 10 "movies" on to the DS9 cast, who badly needed an update.
     
  19. Citiprime

    Citiprime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    With Deep Space Nine's ending, I always think about "the day after" the events in the fire caves, and how everyone would react and whether anyone would know what happened?

    Unless the Prophets relayed a message through the Orbs, or they were made aware of everything by Sisko (through Kassidy), all everyone would know is that both the Kai and the Emissary disappeared after entering those caves with a strange dude that was the Kai's lover. Like do people know that Winn had basically betrayed everything and everyone? Do they know she was in league with Gul Dukat and the Pah Wraiths?

    I would think that information alone would be a HUGE shock to Bajoran society. Basically, the Bajoran Pope is revealed to be a devil worshipper. People wouldn't stop believing in the Prophets, since their Emissary just saved everyone and every thing. But I have to believe there would be people who might stop believing in the religious system that was set up around the Prophets (e.g., think of how some Catholics reassessed their support for the Catholic Church after the priest sex scandals), and since Bajor's religious system seems to be intertwined with government in Bajoran society that could have big repercussions for changes going forward.

    We see Sisko tell Kassidy that he's ascended to the Celestial Temple/Wormhole. And we know the Bajorans (and the Sisko family) believe he will return some day. But he doesn't relay all of the details.
    When Behr got the DS9 writers back together to map out a hypothetical "season 8" for the What We Left Behind documentary, Bajor is still not in the Federation more than two decades later and that's a huge part of the story. Basically, bad things start happening to certain people who know too much (i.e., Goodbye, Nog). And eventually it all leads to a conspiracy by Section 31 to kill the Prophets with the idea that by eliminating Bajor's "gods" and the protection of the Prophets, the Bajorans would run to the Federation for help and finally join.

    The big twist reveal would be that Dr. Julian Bashir is now the head of Section 31 and behind the entire thing.

    I've read interviews where Behr has defended the idea of Bajor remaining independent as being indicative of Sisko's conversion from being a Starfleet officer who shunned his religious position to ultimately being a true believer who accepts his role and purpose. Sisko comes to Bajor with the mission of bringing Bajor into the Federation, but in the end the Bajorans bring him to their side. Sisko realizes his true mission is to be the Emissary for Bajor and that purpose supersedes the Federation. The scenes where Sisko explains to Ross that "home" is no longer Earth, but Bajor to him, hint at this.
     
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  20. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I have IRL friends whose family literally arranged their marriages and he had to go back home to get married and bring his wife to the US.

    So saying that only Vulcan having arranged Marriages, when current day humans still practice this in some parts of the world is kind of funny.

    I doubt certain cultures will change that aspect, even moving to the future.