Welsh 'Gay' Wedding & IDIC

[Paniscus]

After reading the comments that followed this news article (see below) I needed to comment.

I am well aware than humans can be highly contradictory and hypocritical, but the homophobia and death threats written after this news article appeared on TrekToday scare me.

What ever happened to:

Infinite diversity in infinite combinations

​

How can you celebrate a mission of exploration, a journey to meet 'new life and new civilisation' when you cannot accept life here on Earth? Is your faith in Jesus Christ so tenuous that it is threatened by these women? By me?

You're responses (mostly from North Americans it appears) remind me of the Spanish conquistadors who fed 'two spirited' peoples to their dogs. You appear not to have evolved much. Let us hope that we can live up to Roddenberry's dream and be better people in 400 years.

With these views present in American audiences (and I acknowledge that they are by no means the only, just the loudest and most vitriolic) it is little wonder that Star Trek has not dealt sufficiently with queer issues.

Perhaps it is time to let Russell T. Davis take over the franchise?



http://www.trektoday.com/content/2011/09/welsh-couple-ties-the-knot-trek-style/

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

You come here addressing the posters of this board, but before taking on the question, I think we ought to ask--are those anonymous posters actually board members?

Personally, I think the church should decide what the word "marriage" may be used for, and when they will allow their rites to be carried out. That isn't something the government has a right to interfere with. As long a a religion does not become violent or commit crimes (a belief or decision on when to conduct a religious rite is not a crime, though), the government should not get involved. Just the same, civil unions for the purpose of economic/legal issues (such as joint tax filing, inheritance rights, benefits in the workplace, and so on), though, I am not opposed to, and I don't think churches should have any say in such a government policy.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

******Just a note to remind any current or potential posters to keep this thread Trek-centered. Political, theological or any other hot button issues should be discussed either in the Miscellaneous or Neutral Zone forums.******

 

[sojourner]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

^I think the original poster already failed at that.

 

[nightwind1]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

Well, I was one of the ones who replied to the hateful posters, and my reply WAS Trek-related:

"I assume you're here as fans of Star Trek.

Where is your appreciation of Trek's philosophy of equality and inclusiveness?

So, it was okay for an Earthwoman to marry a Vulcan (an entirely different SPECIES), but not for two humans to marry each other?"

The stupid reply to my posting above was:

"Has nothing to do with species. It has to do with the sexes. 2 men and 2 women marrying are not even close to normal."

So, apparently, interspecies mating is better regarded than mating between the same species.

 

[Sandoval]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

Some people don't approve of homosexual relationships. Some don't approve of inter-racial relationships.

That is their opinion.

Accept it, move on.

 

[Kertrats47]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

Some people don't approve of homosexual relationships. Some don't approve of inter-racial relationships.

That is their opinion.

Accept it, move on.

That probably wouldn't be a problem if it ended there. The problem comes when people who actively try to deny rights to others. Opinions aren't a problem, it's when those opinions are used to curtail the rights of others.

I think the world of Star Trek is definitely an ideal, where these issues are seen as "no big deal," and aren't even noticed by the average person.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

Infinite diversity in infinite combinations

It's easy to support someone else's beliefs if they are identical to your own. Tolerating beliefs that you don't personal endorse, or even fully understand, is harder. It takes some effort.

The comments at the bottom of the article you linked us to was an expression of diversity. Different people with different thoughts on a subject. Diversity doesn't mean everyone agrees with you, nor do you have to embrace their points of view.

What would be your desire here Paniscus? To shut them up, to forbid their expression? I found what those two people in the article did to be charming and romantic, shall others who thought differently be put to death?

And if at some point in the future you were to disagree with me, then we kill you, Paniscus, too? Societies can control to a extent actions, but should never seek to control thoughts and believes.

---

Perhaps it is you who should embrace IDIC.

---

 

[Paniscus]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

Let me state for the record, that I embrace my own hypocrisy. I am well aware that on the one hand I support self expressions. But on the other hand there are limits. Maybe its cultural, we in Australia don't have 'freedom speech. We have anti-discrimination and anti-vilification laws. Which regulates racism, misogyny and homophobia. I will never accept racism, misogyny or homophobia as viable or respectable positions. Surely you would not expect me to respect the views of Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, or Robert Mugabe just because they are 'infinitely diverse'.

My post was less about the Christian Church, the Bible or Jesus and more about the views of Star Treks' audience as exemplified in the comments. The views come from hate and ignorance. I was simply querying how people who watch Star Trek (so much so that they follow TrekToday and Trek BBS) can do so without acknowledging our own diversity. Certainly Kirk was a little Terran-centric ("one God is enough" in "Who mourns for Adonis?") and the Trek universe rarely had any queers in it; but at least the intent was there.

I came to Star Trek in the early 1990s because I saw in that universe a mirror to my values. And I am certain (as best I can be) that this is not what Roddenberry imagined.

So I don't wish to "forbid" anyone's opinion, all I ask is some reflection/discussion on the apparent conflicting views within Star Trek fandom - and I hope it goes beyond a 12 year old level attack of "my God says so that's why".

 

[nightwind1]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

Some people don't approve of homosexual relationships. Some don't approve of inter-racial relationships.

That is their opinion.

Accept it, move on.

It shouldn't be accepted. This is the 21st Century. If we wish to see diversity and inclusiveness ANYTHING like we see in Trek, bigotry of any kind is UNacceptable.

"Well, those Jews. Let's find a final solution for them. It's our opinion, let people accept it and move on..."

 

[Misfit Toy]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

Some people don't approve of homosexual relationships. Some don't approve of inter-racial relationships.

That is their opinion.

Accept it, move on.

It shouldn't be accepted. This is the 21st Century. If we wish to see diversity and inclusiveness ANYTHING like we see in Trek, bigotry of any kind is UNacceptable.

"Well, those Jews. Let's find a final solution for them. It's our opinion, let people accept it and move on..."

So - necessarily, IDIC has limits, which means that the "Infinite" label is...wrong?

 

[nightwind1]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

Some people don't approve of homosexual relationships. Some don't approve of inter-racial relationships.

That is their opinion.

Accept it, move on.

It shouldn't be accepted. This is the 21st Century. If we wish to see diversity and inclusiveness ANYTHING like we see in Trek, bigotry of any kind is UNacceptable.

"Well, those Jews. Let's find a final solution for them. It's our opinion, let people accept it and move on..."

So - necessarily, IDIC has limits, which means that the "Infinite" label is...wrong?

When it comes to bigotry and hatred... yes, it is.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, or Robert Mugabe

If you had never been exposed to the thoughts of Hitler, how would you know them to be wrong? Accept them no, live in a society where some though and the expression of that thought is surpressed ... also no.

No one would expect you to respect their views, that isn't what diversity means, but you should never even wish for others to be "protected' from things that you don't like. Because if you do, congradulations, you're now living in Iran.

Surpressing "hate speech," is one very small step from surpressing "not my personal philosphy speech."

I live in Seattle, Washington (USA), go down to the public market and there they are, dozens of folds card tables piled high with pamplets, buttons, political petitions, ballot intiatives (we bypass our politicians here). You can briefly close your mind and walk on by. You can also stand there and scream at them for their bliefs (that YOUR freedom of speech).

But you should never want them to go away. People like that ended slavery. People like that got women the vote. People like that enacted child labor laws.

You see, objectionable people do good things too. And I'm sure there were people who just wanted them to shut up too.

When it comes to bigotry and hatred... yes, it is.

But who decides what is bigotry and what is hatred?

 

[Misfit Toy]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

It shouldn't be accepted. This is the 21st Century. If we wish to see diversity and inclusiveness ANYTHING like we see in Trek, bigotry of any kind is UNacceptable.

"Well, those Jews. Let's find a final solution for them. It's our opinion, let people accept it and move on..."

So - necessarily, IDIC has limits, which means that the "Infinite" label is...wrong?

When it comes to bigotry and hatred... yes, it is.

Ok - I'd argue that it isn't - that what was intended as the IDIC concept was to recognize the diversity of others, but not necessarily to endorse their views.

The culture who follows the concept of IDIC cannot impose that concept on others, nor can they impose their own morality upon another culture. Of course, throughout Trek the Vulcans did just that, but honestly I don't see how IDIC CAN be followed in every circumstance as endorsement of infinite diversity.


*****Edited to add: I changed the thread title to include IDIC. Maybe that will help keep this on topic.

 

[Sector 7]

How sweet that a couple from Wales decided to have a Star Trek themed wedding!

Without the word "gay" in the title, few would have given it a second thought, except for comments like mine. The sad part is that one word sent some into a religious fervor... and others into an anti-religious one.

SIDE NOTE: Quietly, on September 20, 2011, the policy of Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed. This means many members of the United States military (like me... I was never able to admit I was gay while serving in combat) who had to lie about their homosexual hardwiring may now serve without loss of rank, dishonorable discharge or retaliation. To quote Neil Armstrong, "That's one small step for man; one giant leap for mankind."

 

[Sandoval]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

"Well, those Jews. Let's find a final solution for them. It's our opinion, let people accept it and move on..."

And here we see Godwin's Law in action folks.

Nightwind has given us the perfect example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.

Well done Nightwind, how very predictable you must be.

 

[nightwind1]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

"Well, those Jews. Let's find a final solution for them. It's our opinion, let people accept it and move on..."

And here we see Godwin's Law in action folks.

Nightwind has given us the perfect example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.[/QUOTE/

Well done Nightwind, how very predictable you must be.

In this case it's applicable. After all, who else joined the Jews in the ovens because of the Nazi's "opinions"? Who did they force to wear little pink triangles because of those "opinions"? It's not Godwinning when it's accurate. Hatred and bigotry is hatred and bigotry.

 

[Sandoval]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

In this case it's applicable. After all, who else joined the Jews in the ovens because of the Nazi's "opinions"? Who did they force to wear little pink triangles because of those "opinions"? It's not Godwinning when it's accurate. Hatred and bigotry is hatred and bigotry.

You're statement is a textbook case of Godwin's Law I'm afraid, someone thinking the inevitable reference to Hitler will strengthen their argument by inserting it into virtually any discussion. No one was discussing the slaughter of six million Jews, and the slaughter of six million Jews has nothing to do with this gay marriage discussion.

It hasn't strengthened your argument by referencing the Holocaust, it has only served to make you look quite silly and predictable.

Godwin's Law in action - some predictable individual will always mention the Holocaust and the Nazis. In this case, Nightwind.

 

[nightwind1]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

In this case it's applicable. After all, who else joined the Jews in the ovens because of the Nazi's "opinions"? Who did they force to wear little pink triangles because of those "opinions"? It's not Godwinning when it's accurate. Hatred and bigotry is hatred and bigotry.

You're statement is a textbook case of Godwin's Law I'm afraid, someone thinking the inevitable reference to Hitler will strengthen their argument by inserting it into a discussion over gay marriage.

As I've said, you're an exceptionally predictable individual.

And your statement is a textbook case of being an idiot. Are you really defending hatred and bigotry?

 

[Sandoval]

Re: Welsh 'Gay' Wedding

In this case it's applicable. After all, who else joined the Jews in the ovens because of the Nazi's "opinions"? Who did they force to wear little pink triangles because of those "opinions"? It's not Godwinning when it's accurate. Hatred and bigotry is hatred and bigotry.

You're statement is a textbook case of Godwin's Law I'm afraid, someone thinking the inevitable reference to Hitler will strengthen their argument by inserting it into a discussion over gay marriage.

As I've said, you're an exceptionally predictable individual.

And your statement is a textbook case of being an idiot. Are you really defending hatred and bigotry?

Yawn. This is how Hitler and the Nazis started...