Welsh 'gay' marriage appendix.

[Paniscus]

As I live in Australia we are ahead of the US in regards to time. By the time I wake up in a new day much discussion in my original post had taken place and I see it is now closed.

If Misfit will indulge me I'd like to respond to a few points. Firstly, apologies, I don't keep track of who said what. And when I thought you're points were off topic I didn't read it.

I agree that descending into a discussion of the holocaust etc. was never my intention - which I thought my secondary post cleared up - so I have no problem with the thread being closed on those grounds.

Several people followed my point that 'our' (western) culture doesn't always respect diverse opinions. We (the west) went to war against Hitler and his views/actions and Hussein and his views/actions (but not Mugabe?). Not only was this deemed appropriate, but anyone who questioned the war in Iraq was considered un-American/Australian.

The 'limit' in the IDIC then is when another's point of view is hate, violence. Like I said I will never respect that. I am lucky in that I do not hate people who hate me. I am confident in my own views that I'd happily engage in and welcome conversation with them and not shut them up. One of the worse things about racism, misogyny and homophobia is when it is behind closed doors. Unfortunately as we saw in the post people just fall into a (predictable) trap of speaking from a 12 year old level.

Someone mentioned that unless 'gay' was mentioned in the post topic heading that it's wouldn't have gotten attention. I agree. When I read the original article on TrekToday I didn't even notice that the couple were 'gay'. It wasn't until I read the homophobic vitriol in the comments at the bottom of the page that I saw them as 'different'. I am honestly surprised to find that in a Star Trek audience. It didn't appear logical.

Honestly, my first reaction to the original article was: that is how I want to get married: a traditional Vulcan ceremony in fact. That is, once I find a man to love and the Marriage Act in Australia changes (which may happen in December).

To those who offered good points to the discussion I thank you.

 

[scotpens]

Several people followed my point that 'our' (western) culture doesn't always respect diverse opinions. We (the west) went to war against Hitler and his views/actions and Hussein and his views/actions (but not Mugabe?).

And that’s the crux of the issue. You write “views/actions” as if it were a single thing, when, in fact, thoughts and actions are completely separate and different things.

Everyone has the right to think and to publicly express their thoughts, no matter how repugnant most of us may find those thoughts to be. When we start equating views, opinions or philosophies with actions, then we have thoughtcrime.

Hitler had every right to harbor a personal hatred of Jews. He had no right to systematically exterminate them. Thoughts, actions. Two different things.

 

[Admiral Shran]

It would probably be much better if this were in the Misc. Forum, but I'll bite.

I'd say that the limit of IDIC is indeed violence, but not hatred. If someone out there is just hateful, then how can we justifiably force them to stop. We would, in fact, be the aggressors in that case. Now, if someone out there is committing violence because of that hate, that's an entirely different situation. In that case - yes, it needs to stop and we need to stop it. They're the aggressors now and we are just putting an end to the violence. But, forcing someone to stop thinking a certain way? I can't justify that. We should do everything we can to encourage that person not to hate (through education, lecturing, etc.), but the instigation of force should only be used when force has been first been visited upon you.

Beside that moral consideration, there's the consideration that if you forcibly try to silence someone's thoughts, all you do is push it behind closed doors. Which, if we're going to keep this Trek-based, is a big problem I have with the Federation. They've succeeded in removing discrimination from their institutions (in fact, institutionalized discrimination thankfully seems to be truly a thing of the past), but they appear to have used the same tactic in their attempt to remove that discrimination from people's hearts and minds. They force people to think a certain way, which never works. Just look at the attitudes of many in Starfleet to the Ferengi. They can't stand Ferengi values and make no secret of it. But, instead of trying to encourage the Ferengi to alter their ways, they attempt to control what people should think about them and what the Ferengi themselves should think. In so doing, they implicitly say that it's okay to look down on Ferengis behind closed doors since they don't share "our" beliefs.

 

[sojourner]

This will end well.

 

[Paradon]

I think if gay people didn't make such a big deal and in your face all the time about it, more and more people wouldn't mine it so much.

 

[Admiral Shran]

This will end well.

It already has ended well once.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Paniscus, I appreciate your comments, but considering the fact that Trek fandom has its share of jerks (like every other group), this topic, not just this thread, has a history of straying far beyond the Trek-centric nature of the forum. Closing.