Well Into Season 2 of DS9

[Duane]

As I mentioned in another thread, I am a huge fan of TOS but am just now getting around to seeing all of DS9. I decided to watch from the start as many of you suggested and I don't regret it.

I can't post an exhaustive critique of my likes and dislikes since I am just trying to have fun and am not making notes. Also, when you watch 4-6 hours for DS9 PER DAY you literally start to dream about it at night and the plot lines and titles get mixed up a bit.

Anyway, I have several comments and a few questions, and I'd love to read your comments in case I have missed something or perhaps you have a different take on something.

1. My favorite actor in this series up until now is Colm Meany (Chief O'Brien.) I had no idea he played such a huge role in this series. He plays it so natural it is hard to believe he is acting.

2. Close runner up is Armin S. (Quark.) He plays it JUST right. You love him, you despise him, but mostly you just love him.

3. So far there is only one actor and one character that I really don't like. That is Major Kira. I hope my feelings change in later seasons.

4. For some reason I do not buy the love story between Chief O'Brien and his wife (Keiko?) I just don't feel the chemistry and she creeps me out a bit. I know this relationship started on TNG, but I didn't buy it then and I still don't. They seem so awfully matched.

5. I just wanna slap the new Priestess on Bajor (Kia? something.) She is so easy to hate. I guess the actor portraying her is doing a really good job.

6. I also don't buy that DS9 use to be some kind of ore processing station? If you have ever seen an ore processing plant (I haven't) I am guessing that a space station is the last place you would do that sort of work. Costs would be astronomically higher than doing it on a planet. Question: did I miss something here?

7. I enjoyed "The Circle" three-parter. As far as I can recall, this is the first three-parter in Star Trek history. TOS certainly had none, and I don't recall TNG doing it. Or am I wrong?

8. Two stand alone episodes I really liked. I forget the name of the first one, but it was were the guy rams his ship (and himself) into the dead sun while screaming "Let there be light!" and even better was Shadowplay.

Question: was Shadowplay in any way the birth of the idea of the holographic doctor for Voyager?

I was annoyed by Whispers because the episode creeps along, pretending there is a major secret to be revealed, and when it finally happens it is not that big a deal nor that big of a suprise.

I enjoyed Paradise a lot and wish TOS had done an episode critical of cults (The Way to Eden partly counts, I guess.)

I have 10 more episodes to go, but for now I need to get some work done if I want to keep my job!

 

[intrinsical]

Its good that you're enjoying yourself, sounds like you're well on your way to being a Niner.

5) Yes Kai Winn is just plain evil, as you notice as you watch more episodes.

6) I've always assumed the reason is tactical. It is built in space to reduce the number of Bajoran terrorist attacks.

As far as I know, Shadowplay has nothing to do with the EMH program.

 

[scottydog]

I wish I were watching the entire series again for the first time. I envy you!

It never occurred to me that the costs of processing ore in space would be so much higher than on the planet. Why would that be the case? You can just "beam" everything you need up to the station. There is the cost of the station itself, but with replicators I'm not sure that's very costly.

I think you'll like Kira more as the series progresses. The first season or two, she is a bit whiny and annoying. She earned my respect beginning around season 3.

 

[indranee]

thanks for posting. I envy you! wish I could watch DS9 for the first time all over again.

I just have one point for now: the greatest thing about DS9 (besides the story arcs) is the fact that its characters truly evolve. keep watching and you'll find yourself going through love, hate, love, hate etc for Kira and some other key characters. in the end, what you'll gain is understanding and a wonderful sense of familiarity with them. then, when you watch What You Leave Behind, I guarantee you, you'll choke up.

DS9 is MADE for, by, and of its characters; they're what make DS9 what it is.

 

[tomalak301]

roger1999 said:


7. I enjoyed "The Circle" three-parter. As far as I can recall, this is the first three-parter in Star Trek history. TOS certainly had none, and I don't recall TNG doing it. Or am I wrong?

TNG kinda did it with Best of Both Worlds I, II, and Family.

I'm glad you're enjoying DS9. Season 2 is a really underrated season.

 

[DS9Continuing]

You've got pretty much the right idea about Kai Winn (Kai is her title, Winn is her name). And a lot of people feel the same as you about Keiko - she's not one of the more popular characters. Don't know if it's the acting or the writing, but she seems to get on a lot of people's nerves.

As for Kira, she was always my favourite character right from the beginning, precisely because she was so different from all the blander-than-thou TNG characters. She had an attitude and a forcefulness that made her stand out after no much nauseating niceness.

It's interesting that you like "Shadowplay" and "Second Sight" though, because those don't often get mentioned in the "fave eps" lists.

 

[Smiley]

I think Keiko comes off badly because we don't see the whole picture. We get the conflicts and arguments because those make for dramatic television. What we don't see as much is their everyday existence where they are simply lovers and parents.

 

[indranee]

Keiko basically felt that she got a bad deal. I mean, think about it, a botanist (wasn't she one?) in a space station? she made that sacrifice for Miles and then she hated everything about it and probably hated herself for it (and him, at times). still, it felt like they loved each other and tried to make it work. I loved the whole teaching angle that was brought up. it showed that she was struggling to make things work, to make sense of her life. it showed her as a thinking, feeling human being who was trying to make the best of what she felt was a bad situation for her (and not succeeding very well).

I liked this relationship not because it was all sweetness and light, but because it was realistic and showed the practicalities of a Starfleet marriage and how it can mess with what could be true love. love can't always smooth the way. I liked that the O'Brien's marriage showed this. trust DS9 to do something like this. good stuff!

 

[Can]

Miles/Keiko marriage was a relationship as a real marriege supposed to be. They love@care each other. Sometimes they disagree and argue but they never fail to get over it and be together again. It was like a real husband/wife relationship which is not good TV material. There was no overdramatization or impossible sitations etc..

Best point is they were there for each other when one of them needed. When Chief was suffering after what happened in "Hard Time" she did her best to support him. When Keiko possed by Par Wraith in "The Assignment" ( one of best Rosalyn Chao performances ) Chief defied impossible odds to take his wife back.

 

[Navaros]

I totally can't stand Keiko, just like you, roger. She is always bitchy and obnoxious for no reason whatsoever in just about 100% of her scenes in DS9. It bewilders me why she was even on the show, she was a completely useless character to boot. When I found out she got to appear ~20 episodes on DS9, I was shocked that they wasted so much money and screentime on a worthless, annoying character, especially since the other secondary characters who got similar amount of episodes are immaculately brilliant in their performances.

I disagree with those saying the Keiko/O'Brien marriage was "realistic". Yes real marriages have arguments and conflict and this should be portrayed. However, Keiko takes that idea wayyyy beyond any reasonable extreme to the point that there is no reason at all why O'Brien would have any reason to love her or be married to her. And to top that off, there aren't even any good reasons behind Keiko being obnoxious and abrasive all the time, which in a real marriage, there would be.

Kira is very bitchy and obnoxious for no reason just like Keiko in the first 2 seasons or so. But thankfully, Kira tones it down after that and only lets it resurface in occassional bouts after that. Kira becomes tolerable as of Season 3 and on.

Agree with you about Quark. Brilliant actor behind him. Ditto with O'Brien. Ditto with almost every single member of DS9's whole huge cast (including secondary characters), which as you watch the whole series I'm sure you will come to appreciate even more.

For Vedek/Kai Winn, the new priestess of Bajor you are talking about, she is supposed to be like that (unlike Keiko and Kira, who are like that due to bad acting, not because they are supposed to be!). The Vedek/Kai Winn actress won a very well-deserved Oscar in the 1970's for playing what has become the defacto "bitch" role in pop culture to this day: Nurse Ratched. She is equally amazing on DS9 in that same type of Oscar-winning role.

DS9 eventually starts to take on longer arcs than 3 episodes, and as a whole series, becomes somewhat of a long arc in and of itself. Which is something no other Trek series can claim. :thumbsup:

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I also don't buy that DS9 use to be some kind of ore processing station? If you have ever seen an ore processing plant (I haven't) I am guessing that a space station is the last place you would do that sort of work. Costs would be astronomically higher than doing it on a planet. Question: did I miss something here?

The notion of it being worthwhile to ship (or even beam) raw materials into space in order to process it has always struck me as bizarre. I guess you could make some kind of case for the processing requiring zero gravity to "work," due to technobabble reasons, but in the flashbacks/alternate universe versions of Terok Nor, we never saw any evidence of zero gravity. I guess we just ignore it.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

IMHO, Keiko and Miles' best episode in THE ASSIGNMENT, which is well past season 2.

I never cared much for SECOND SIGHT, brilliant, if egocentric, scientist wasting himself like that. Sure he did what he set out to do, but who knows what he could've done in his remaining years? The most interesting thing was the use of starship sets.

To put a TNG title spin on the episode "IMAGINARY GIRLFRIEND"

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

my favorite episodes from this season are the opening trilogy, "Invasive Procedures" "I'm sure if you hate Kira, you enjoyed seeing her getting beat up by a woman!)
"Whispers"
"The Maquis"
(now taht i'm thinking of it, I like almost every episode I'm leaving otu) but the real winner this season was Necessary Evil

what do you think of that one, a show none of the other Treks could ever pull off

 

[Evil Twin]

roger1999 said:
8. Two stand alone episodes I really liked. I forget the name of the first one, but it was were the guy rams his ship (and himself) into the dead sun while screaming "Let there be light!"

I was annoyed by Whispers because the episode creeps along, pretending there is a major secret to be revealed, and when it finally happens it is not that big a deal nor that big of a suprise.

Yikes, couldn't disagree with you more. "Second Sight" is probably among the most forgettable episodes of the series IMO, whereas "Whispers" is an excellent episode. Very Twilight Zone-ish. I thought the revelation that we were following a copy of Miles the whole episode (and that he himself didn't know it) was great. Good solid sci-fi. Sorry to hear you were underwhelmed by it.

 

[AdmiralGarak]

As a Garak fan, "Cardassians" and "The Wire" rank high for me in season 2. "The Wire" is one DS9's most underrated gems. It reminds me a lot of a Garak and Bashir version of "Duet" or "Waltz".

Roger1999-- Have you reached "Crossover" and "Blood Oath" yet? I won't spoil you if you haven't yet reached them, but I'm always curious to hear what TOS fans think of those episodes.

As for "Shadowplay" inspiring the EMH: Not as far as I've ever heard. It's more likely that the two major sentient holograms from TNG, Minuet and Moriarty, inspired him. Many of Voyager's writers/creators had their roots with TNG, not DS9.

 

[tomalak301]

^I'm glad someone else loves Cardassians. It's an episode that doesn't get talked about very much but it was really an underrated gem. It provided so much more garak, and got more into Bajoran life and the aftereffects of the occupation while still keeping to the political theme of the season that made it so interesting.

 

[Duane]

YYZ, I'll need to fast forward through "Necessary Evil" as I do not recall the plot. I'll post again in a week or so and let you know what I think.

Admiral Garak, I haven't reached "Blood Oath" or "Crossover" but will let you know my opinion in the next post.

Evil Twin, I was probably too critical of "Whispers." I suspect I saw it many years ago because I wasn't very far into the episode when I figured out what was probably going on.

But I generally don't like "one trick pony" episodes that really on a single plot point to make them interesting.

 

[anti-matter]

HUH! I thought the Circle trilogy concluded at the end of S-2/premier of S-3. any I agree with a lot of the OP comments. For me DS9 didn't get compelling until the Circle. Anyway the worm is about to turn for roger1999 because DS9 is about to ramp up its storytelling...enjoy.

 

[indranee]

for me, the last six eps (starting with The Maquis) of S2 really ratcheted up the story arc for what comes later. although, Necessary Evil is a fantastic ep that has repercussions far beyond just the season. it's an explanation AND foreshadowing of a lot of story threads.

 

[Yassim]

roger1999 said:
2. Close runner up is Armin S. (Quark.) He plays it JUST right. You love him, you despise him, but mostly you just love him.

You gotta love Quark. Keep watching - he has some of the best moments in the show.

3. So far there is only one actor and one character that I really don't like. That is Major Kira. I hope my feelings change in later seasons.

and there's the beauty of DS9. I *love* Kira, but wouldn't miss Jadzia if she disappeared and was never mentioned again. There's something for everyone!

4. For some reason I do not buy the love story between Chief O'Brien and his wife (Keiko?) I just don't feel the chemistry and she creeps me out a bit.

Then I guess I'm glad you've never seen an unhappy marriage! It strikes me as sadly true to life.

6. I also don't buy that DS9 use to be some kind of ore processing station? If you have ever seen an ore processing plant (I haven't) I am guessing that a space station is the last place you would do that sort of work. Costs would be astronomically higher than doing it on a planet. Question: did I miss something here?

Extreme heat, cold and vacuum are all easier to achieve in space. And no one seems to be paying for the transporter, and there's lots of slave labour.
and processing it on its way off the planet saves you building lots of planet-bound processing plants, that would degrade the environment. If it's all bound offworld (and I'd guess it was), then why not process it on route?

8. Two stand alone episodes I really liked. I forget the name of the first one, but it was were the guy rams his ship (and himself) into the dead sun while screaming "Let there be light!" and even better was Shadowplay.

Meh. I found those two very mediocre. S2 has much higher highlights. Keep watching!