Was Lazarus immortal?

[USS Triumphant]

Just rewatched "The Alternative Factor". It's always been one of my least favorite episodes. Even as a kid in the 80s when I first saw it, I knew that the science was terribly wrong AND that the knowledge that made it wrong had been around since before the episode was made. Pretty slack. BUT, I could even forgive all of that - assume that the scientific details were just something other than the words they were saying and sort of "No-Prize" that away - for the story they were trying to tell.

No, my biggest problem was and is Kirk's melodramatic little speech about Lazarus and his anti-matter mirror self being trapped "at each others' throats for all eternity". Is there something I've missed in the times I've seen this episode that indicates that Lazarus is immortal? I mean, one of them clearly believes they could kill the other one, so there's probably some way they can die - but beyond that, I'm seeing a being that appears to me like he would need to eat, to sleep, to drink water, etc.

Why would Kirk assume that the two Lazaruses would be at each others' throats more than a couple of months, at most?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Maybe people don't age in the magnetic corridor when it's sealed.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Maybe people don't age in the magnetic corridor when it's sealed.

Well, maybe, but that seems like it only makes sense if time doesn't pass in the corridor. But Kirk actually seemed to experience something passing through. (Of course, that could have been his brain trying to "explain" the event rather than an actual experience.) And then it would still make no sense for him to think they would be fighting....or doing anything, really.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Time obviously passed, but the Lazaruses glowed azure blue and everything got topsy-turvy and cosmic. Whatever it was like in there, it wasn't normal existence.

 

[dahj]

Were his methods supernatural?
Or just cheap parlor tricks to conceal his true identity behind several cheap fake beards?

 

[The Old Mixer]

The correct answer to any questions about "The Alternative Factor" is: Who the fuck knows? [with hands thrown up for emphasis]

 

[Shawnster]

But what of Lazarus? What of Lazarus?

 

[Ronald Held]

My interpretation was time did not pass in the interface corridor. YMMV.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

"HELLO DAVE!" - Papa Lazarus

 

[telerites]

It wasn't one of my favorites either but I always wondered what if Kirk hadn't been able to win and force him through the corridor to battle his other self. And I know Kirk wanted Spock and the redshirts to stand down but they did show great restraint in not jumping in without hardly any reason why they shouldn't try to help Kirk.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Lazarus - both of them - got a sequel, of sorts, in a SNW story called "Reborn".

Spoiler: Reborn

The basic thrust of the gist is, Sisko - yes, The Sisko himself, using his newfound Prophet abilities - frees both Lazari from the 'corridor'. Each Lazarus is deposited onto his universe's version of Bajor, and both of them are now leading normal lives.

 

[USS Triumphant]

And I know Kirk wanted Spock and the redshirts to stand down but they did show great restraint in not jumping in without hardly any reason why they shouldn't try to help Kirk.

"Great restraint". Bah. By that point in the series, they were pretty fed up with his crap - the security guys for getting redshirts killed left and right, and Spock because he enabled McCoy's constant racist (speciesist?) badgering. They were fine with it if he got his ass handed to him - thought it'd be nice to see him taken down a peg.

Lazarus - both of them - got a sequel, of sorts, in a SNW story called "Reborn".

Spoiler: Reborn

The basic thrust of the gist is, Sisko - yes, The Sisko himself, using his newfound Prophet abilities - frees both Lazari from the 'corridor'. Each Lazarus is deposited onto his universe's version of Bajor, and both of them are now leading normal lives.

Yes, yes - take an old unwanted turd and make it like new with a brand new coat of crap. Good job, whichever author did that. Nobody is happy with you.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Kirk's bit at the end (saying "How would it be?" and "What of Lazarus?" twice each) was just awkward dialogue capping off an awkward episode.

The "all eternity" thing, to me, just means that we'll never hear from the Lazari again, and thus in our minds their "trapped in the corridor" story has a beginning but no end. Of course they're going to die in there, but saying so is indelicate. To Kirk, they're like Schrodinger's cat now, unseen in a box and we can't tell their status.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Kirk's bit at the end (saying "How would it be?" and "What of Lazarus?" twice each) was just awkward dialogue capping off an awkward episode.

The "all eternity" thing, to me, just means that we'll never hear from the Lazari again, and thus in our minds their "trapped in the corridor" story has a beginning but no end. Of course they're going to die in there, but saying so is indelicate. To Kirk, they're like Schrodinger's cat now, unseen in a box and we can't tell their status.

Nopers. The intent is clearly that they're trapped for eternity.

KIRK: You can't hold him forever.
LAZARUS: Can't I, Captain? You destroy his ship.
KIRK: If I destroy his ship, won't yours also be destroyed?
LAZARUS: It will.
KIRK: And your door will be closed.
LAZARUS: Yes, and so will his.
KIRK: You'll be trapped inside that corridor with him forever. At each other's throats throughout time.
LAZARUS: Is it such a large price to pay for the safety of two universes?
KIRK: I'm ready.
LAZARUS: Send him to me. I'll be waiting.

[...]

KIRK: There is, of course, no escape. How would it be? Trapped forever with a raging madman at your throat until time itself came to a stop? For eternity. How would it be?​

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/20.htm

If you're going to argue that that's not what will happen, then you have to argue that what happens is contrary to the understanding of the situation that Kirk and Antimatter Lazarus have of the situation and what they said about it.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

If you're going to argue that that's not what will happen, then you have to argue that what happens is contrary to the understanding of the situation that Kirk and Antimatter Lazarus have of the situation and what they said about it.

I'm saying "eternity" is a euphemism for "as long as you live," because I can't see how the corridor would convey immortality to flesh and blood men. People talk like that all the time, saying "forever" when they mean for life. Also, when you're talking to someone with a super-short life expectancy, it's difficult to be blunt about it.

I think you're correct about the writer's intention, that there would be some magic in the corridor that kept the Lazari from aging or even needing food and water, but I'm trying to make lemonade here. I don't like the script, so I'm taking it less literally.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm saying "eternity" is a euphemism for "as long as you live," because I can't see how the corridor would convey immortality to flesh and blood men. People talk like that all the time, saying "forever" when they mean for life. Also, when you're talking to someone with a super-short life expectancy, it's difficult to be blunt about it.

I think you're correct about the writer's intention, that there would be some magic in the corridor that kept the Lazari from aging or even needing food and water, but I'm trying to make lemonade here. I don't like the script, so I'm taking it less literally.

I'd be somewhat more inclined to agree with you, if Kirk hadn't hammered it home with "until time itself came to a stop." That's both over the top and much harder to take euphemistically.

 

[Vger23]

It's clear to me that the corridor has the same properties as the Nexus in that the passage of normal time has no meaning there. It's a place that exists outside space time. And, like the Nexus, that means "the predator has no teeth".

 

[Vger23]

"Great restraint". Bah. By that point in the series, they were pretty fed up with his crap - the security guys for getting redshirts killed left and right, and Spock because he enabled McCoy's constant racist (speciesist?) badgering. They were fine with it if he got his ass handed to him - thought it'd be nice to see him taken down a peg.

Yes, yes - take an old unwanted turd and make it like new with a brand new coat of crap. Good job, whichever author did that. Nobody is happy with you.

Say what, bro?

 

[USS Triumphant]

It's clear to me that the corridor has the same properties as the Nexus in that the passage of normal time has no meaning there. It's a place that exists outside space time. And, like the Nexus, that means "the predator has no teeth".

I guess that's possible. But it doesn't help me much, since I think the magical Nexus is pretty dumb, too.

Say what, bro?

I'm unclear as to what was unclear. I was (humorously? ) saying that the reason Spock and the Redshirts (which is now the name of my Trek filk band) were able to be stopped from acting on Kirk's behalf so casually was because they had it in for Kirk, anyway. And the latter part was be saying that I didn't think anyone would be very happy with an author who thought it was a good idea to follow up on this crappy episode and who *made more of it*.

 

[Ronald Held]

A different way to think about it, is it is not Kirk's problem at anytime in his future.