Was John Gill insane?

[RPJOB]

Sure if the federation doesn't mind possibly alienating any potential allies for their war after the klingons made it know the federation destroyes civilizations that don't exceed to their demands.

Plus again the federation likely wanted to use the planet as a base for the war. Kind of hard to do if you burn it to a cinder.

Kirk's orders were quite clear. He wasn't there to allow the Federation to set up a base of their own or to convince the Organians to ally with the Federation. in his own words:

Kirk - We are to proceed to Organia and take whatever steps are necessary to prevent the Klingons from using it as a base.

The Federation was expecting war to break out at any time and sought to prevent the Klingon advance. Sometimes in war the civilians suffer for "the greater good". See Hiroshima & Nagasaki, two cities with no military value but chosen to demonstrate the power of the atomic bomb. Perhaps the most appropriate modern comparison would be the Dresden Firebombing. A strategic location that was attacked without regard to the civilian casualties.

The historian Alexander McKee has cast doubt on the meaningfulness of the list of targets mentioned in 1953 USAAF report and point out that the military barracks listed as a target were a long way out of town and not in fact targeted during the raid.[126] The 'hutted camps' mentioned in the report as military targets were also not military but were provided for refugees.[126] It is also pointed out that the important Autobahn bridge to the west of the city was not targeted or attacked and that no railway stations were on the British target maps, nor were the bridges, such as the railway bridge spanning the Elbe River.[127] Commenting on this Alexander McKee stated that: "The standard whitewash gambit, both British and American, is to mention that Dresden contained targets X, Y and Z, and to let the innocent reader assume that these targets were attacked, whereas in fact the bombing plan totally omitted them and thus, except for one or two mere accidents, they escaped"[128] McKee further asserts, "The bomber commanders were not really interested in any purely military or economic targets, which was just as well, for they knew very little about Dresden; the RAF even lacked proper maps of the city. What they were looking for was a big built up area which they could burn, and that Dresden possessed in full measure"[129]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#That_the_bombing_was_necessary_or_justified

 

[Timo]

Sure if the federation doesn't mind possibly alienating any potential allies for their war after the klingons made it know the federation destroyes civilizations that don't exceed to their demands.

This would only be an issue if such measures were out of the ordinary. However, given the fighting technologies of the day, it would appear downright mundane for all sides in a war to destroy civilizations; the UFP would not stand out from the crowd, and would indeed make a good impression if they only destroyed ten civilizations per war as opposed to the Klingons' fifty.

Plus again the federation likely wanted to use the planet as a base for the war. Kind of hard to do if you burn it to a cinder.

I doubt the Feds wanted the planet, or they would have been more active at getting it.

Sending one starship as opposed to the Klingons' entire fleet may be simply because the Feds were the defenders and had to cover multiple possibilities, while the Klingons were the attackers and could concentrate their forces where they wanted. But if the Feds really cared about Organia, they would still probably have opened up with a fleet of their own. What is strategically important for one side need not be that for the other - and the Feds aren't interested in idle planet-grabbing, despite the multiple TOS examples of them having their way with planets of actual interest to them.

I wonder what made Kirk and Spock decide that Ekos and Zeon would now be prime candidates for UFP membership... Was it simply because the cat was out of the bag regarding native knowledge of the interstellar community? Or was it because the two worlds possessed threshold technology to become interstellar players? Or was it out of a sense of obligation? Certainly strategic concerns were not mentioned in this context as a factor of hurrying up the process - and in the roughly comparable "Bread and Circuses", there was no mention of making the pseudo-Rome a near-future UFP member.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RPJOB]

Sure if the federation doesn't mind possibly alienating any potential allies for their war after the klingons made it know the federation destroyes civilizations that don't exceed to their demands.

This would only be an issue if such measures were out of the ordinary. However, given the fighting technologies of the day, it would appear downright mundane for all sides in a war to destroy civilizations; the UFP would not stand out from the crowd, and would indeed make a good impression if they only destroyed ten civilizations per war as opposed to the Klingons' fifty.

Plus again the federation likely wanted to use the planet as a base for the war. Kind of hard to do if you burn it to a cinder.

I doubt the Feds wanted the planet, or they would have been more active at getting it.

Sending one starship as opposed to the Klingons' entire fleet may be simply because the Feds were the defenders and had to cover multiple possibilities, while the Klingons were the attackers and could concentrate their forces where they wanted. But if the Feds really cared about Organia, they would still probably have opened up with a fleet of their own. What is strategically important for one side need not be that for the other - and the Feds aren't interested in idle planet-grabbing, despite the multiple TOS examples of them having their way with planets of actual interest to them.

Timo Saloniemi

I'm wondering just why Starfleet would have General Order 24 anyway. The ships already have the ability to destroy all life on a planet. It may be in place to give legal cover to a captain that feels it's necessary.

Imagine what would have happened if Kirk had been unable to contact Scotty to countermand the order before the time limit ran out. The entire race could have been wiped out and Scot would have legal backing in the form of Kirk, the officer on the scene, giving him an order to implement GO 24.

It seems that it may indeed be more common that we are led to believe. Perhaps an untold tale from the past could fill us in. The timeframe would have to be fairly recent though. General Order 7 could have been implemented no earlier than 2254 leaving 13 years for the remaining 17 General Orders to be put in place.

 

[Knight Templar]

Well, General Order 24 was carried out in Star Trek: Vanguard by the U.S.S. Endeavour to stop a Shedai attack.

by the way in the final Vanguard novel, it is implied that is the primary purpose for General Order 24. To stop aliens who are invincible otherwise yet vulnerable while on a planetary surface.

 

[T'Girl]

Have always felt that general order twenty-four was a prearranged buff.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ General Order 24: All Starfleet officers must have their shoes shined on command.

Now *that* would be a prearranged buff.

 

[Timo]

General Order 7 could have been implemented no earlier than 2254 leaving 13 years for the remaining 17 General Orders to be put in place.

I seriously doubt the wording of GO7 is anything like "Don't go to Talos or we will have to kill you". That's way too specific to be "general", and way to exotic to carry such a low number! And in any case, one would think all the General Orders were written at the same time, with just one or two added at a later date.

Note also that a few seasons later, it is GO4 that carries the sole death penalty in the books. Again, I doubt that orders dubbed "general" would get so rapidly reshuffled for any reason.

Rather, the likely scenario here is that General Order 7 indeed is a very general order about imposing a quarantine on a planet. It just happens to carry the provision of enforcing the order in general or in specific by various means, up to and including a firing squad - just like every other General Order. And after Pike reports back from his adventure, the option is taken of enforcing the quarantine regulations with death penalty in the specific case of Talos IV. This does not involve rewriting GO7 in any way, nor does the name "Talos IV" appear in the wording of GO7 in any fashion. It is just that Starfleet will quote GO7 when blowing up any starship that has visited Talos IV and hunting down and killing any crew members that might survive.

At other times, other General Orders may exercise that option. General Order 4 is likely to relate to some routine aspect of Starfleet operations, probably more routine than putting planets in quarantine since 4 comes before 7. And some time after Kirk demonstrates that isolating of Talos is a futile exercise, some other starship skipper stumbles on another potentially deadly threat to the future of the Federation, the galaxy or the universe, and Starfleet slaps a death penalty on the specific manner of stumbling, in this case covered by GO4.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RPJOB]

But, is there any indication Eminiar VII destroyed ships? Isn't it also possible, that there were emergencies on nearby outputs that could've been answered without loss of life, or at least minimal loss of life had they had that port close by, rather than having to travel from another port for an additional 2 weeks or whatever? Or maybe there's Pirates or Raiders in the neighborhood preying on Outposts in the area, that wouldn't be doing so, if The Federation had a closer port of call to respond from?

There's no indication that anything destroyed the ships other than accidents. Fox says that lives were lost because The Federation lacked a treaty port. If the ships had an engine malfunction, for example, and Eminiar sent out the code 7-10, they may have tried to make it to the nearest Federation world but couldn't make it.

The Federation wasn't interested in the worlds of the system or their war. They just wanted a port and were willing to spark a war to get it.

KIRK: Code seven-ten means under no circumstances are we to approach that planet. No circumstances what so ever.
FOX: You will disregard that signal, Captain.
KIRK: Mister Fox, it is their planet.
FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.
KIRK: By disregarding code seven-ten, you might well involve us in an interplanetary war.
FOX: I'm quite prepared to take that risk.

When the Enterprise got involved their reaction was to totally upset the natural order that Eminiar and Vendikar had established and that had worked for them for centuries.

Imagine someone entering your house uninvited and they then proceed to trash the place. Just because they later offer to help you clean up doesn't absolve them of the responsibility of breaking and entering and breaking your stuff.

 

[Timo]

If they wear uniforms and carry guns, though, it's generally considered okay.

I mean, it just doesn't pay not to consider it okay...

Yes, it's clear that the UFP is in a process of expanding its spatial reach or at least its strength of grip in this episode, just like it is in many others. For all we know, the port is needed to fight the Klingons, who at this time (even though unknown to the writers) are amassing for war, may well have been sniping at ships in the region for decades, and are known to similarly exert pressure on neutral worlds for better strategic position. Such juggling for advantage permeates all of TOS; it is probably the more secure position of the TNG era Federation that allows our 24th century heroes to leave neutrals to their devices.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Knight Templar]

If they wear uniforms and carry guns, though, it's generally considered okay.

I mean, it just doesn't pay not to consider it okay...

Yes, it's clear that the UFP is in a process of expanding its spatial reach or at least its strength of grip in this episode, just like it is in many others. For all we know, the port is needed to fight the Klingons, who at this time (even though unknown to the writers) are amassing for war, may well have been sniping at ships in the region for decades, and are known to similarly exert pressure on neutral worlds for better strategic position. Such juggling for advantage permeates all of TOS; it is probably the more secure position of the TNG era Federation that allows our 24th century heroes to leave neutrals to their devices.

Timo Saloniemi

The Eminarans did use a variation of Klingon disruptors as hand weapons so it is possible they had encountered them before.