Warp core breach vs. containment failure

[01100011]

This is a complete nit-pick, and only partially a question of academics and technicalities. You've been warned...

So, for the setup--
I know that "warp core breach" and "containment failure" are used pretty much interchangably in the shows. If there's a major difference between them, it seems to be that a containment failure happens in anti-matter storage pods while a warp core breach happens to anti-matter when it's actually in the warp core. But it seems to me that there's never actually a breach in a warp core breach. If magnetic containment fails, then anti-matter comes into contact with the INSIDE of the warp core walls and explodes on contact, releasing gamma radiation that travels at the speed of light, killing everyone on board nearly-instantly (I'm assuming this failure will be several times larger than the Hiroshima explosion, and that the warp core walls can't contain an uncontrolled reaction). Then, a few fractions of a second after the crew is dead, temperatures will rise enough for the OUTSIDE of the warp core wall to fail--resulting in a breach--followed by a big boom.

So here's my question...

If there were an honest-to-God breach on the matter side of the articulation frame, would the ship as a whole be able to survive it? The deuterium flow is probably cryogenic (consider that a sub-question--liquid or gaseous deuterium flow?) so it might not be survivable by the people in engineering, but is a cascade into a containment failure a necessity? Can we say that a warp core breach really is a little different from a containment failure?

 

[Tiberius]

I doubt it. Any breach of the warp core (any part of it) will allow the antimatter to escape from the magnetic constriction that is used throughout the system.

 

[sojourner]

If it's just the deutrium side of the equation that you have a containment failure, then I would say that except for those in the immediate area of the deutrium -which would be cryogenic - the ship should be relatively safe.

 

[The Librarian]

I agree, a breach on the deuterium side should be safe. For that matter, so should anything but the most catastrophic breach on the antimatter side, because there generally shouldn't be more than the tiniest amounts of antimatter in the core at any given time, since presumably it is pretty much immediately reacted, and if there's any trouble fuel flow should be instantly cut off.

 

[Timo]

...But a tiny release would significantly damage the immediate surroundings of the release point, which would expand the breach to the antimatter waiting in those surroundings.

After all, the tiny amount of AM in the reactor must have traveled there from somewhere, and it doesn't make sense to assume that it arrived on some sort of a long distance stagecoach, with a "safe" distance to the next ride. There's apparently a (nearly) constant feed of antimatter to the system, enabling the ship to remain at warp even though AM is constantly being consumed. Even if the AM parcels arrive in distinct pulses denoted by those moving lights on the warp core of the E-D, each parcel is close enough to its neighbor to suffer from the tiniest breach, risking a chain reaction.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ATimson]

If there were an honest-to-God breach on the matter side of the articulation frame, would the ship as a whole be able to survive it? The deuterium flow is probably cryogenic (consider that a sub-question--liquid or gaseous deuterium flow?) so it might not be survivable by the people in engineering, but is a cascade into a containment failure a necessity? Can we say that a warp core breach really is a little different from a containment failure?

That depends on what will happen when you have antimatter reaching the dilithium crystals, but an interrupted matter flow. Will the antimatter just "collect" or will it react with the crystals? (Or worse, proceed "upstream" past the crystals until it can exit at the breach?)

 

[MatthiasRussell]

...But a tiny release would significantly damage the immediate surroundings of the release point, which would expand the breach to the antimatter waiting in those surroundings.

After all, the tiny amount of AM in the reactor must have traveled there from somewhere, and it doesn't make sense to assume that it arrived on some sort of a long distance stagecoach, with a "safe" distance to the next ride. There's apparently a (nearly) constant feed of antimatter to the system, enabling the ship to remain at warp even though AM is constantly being consumed. Even if the AM parcels arrive in distinct pulses denoted by those moving lights on the warp core of the E-D, each parcel is close enough to its neighbor to suffer from the tiniest breach, risking a chain reaction.

Timo Saloniemi

If the leak happened in the intermix chamber, maybe. But if it is in the plumbing from the tanks to the intermix chamber, no. Of course if the flow of matter into the intermix chamber slows due to a leak, the flow of antimatter would need to be immediately reduced. So long as antimatter containment or matter/antimatter mixture is not compromised, the disaster would not be catastrophic.

 

[01100011]

I doubt it. Any breach of the warp core (any part of it) will allow the antimatter to escape from the magnetic constriction that is used throughout the system.

I don't know that I agree with this. I think that a magnetic containment failure is always thought to be the cause of a breach, which is why it's always catastrophic. But if there were some other cause--if I took a non-magnetic pickax and started hacking away at the warp core from the outside, then anti-matter flow should be unaffected when I eventually broke through--provided I was careful not to pierce the magnetic fields. I'd be toasted instantly from the radiation exposure, but the system could continue to operate.

 

[01100011]

I agree, a breach on the deuterium side should be safe. For that matter, so should anything but the most catastrophic breach on the antimatter side, because there generally shouldn't be more than the tiniest amounts of antimatter in the core at any given time, since presumably it is pretty much immediately reacted, and if there's any trouble fuel flow should be instantly cut off.

The anti-matter storage pods are only 60 feet away from the intermix chamber, even on a Galaxy-class ship--6 decks below--and I'm thinking that whatever amount of anti-matter is in the core, once it touches the walls, the explosion is going be enough blow those things wide open...

 

[MatthiasRussell]

I doubt it. Any breach of the warp core (any part of it) will allow the antimatter to escape from the magnetic constriction that is used throughout the system.

I don't know that I agree with this. I think that a magnetic containment failure is always thought to be the cause of a breach, which is why it's always catastrophic. But if there were some other cause--if I took a non-magnetic pickax and started hacking away at the warp core from the outside, then anti-matter flow should be unaffected when I eventually broke through--provided I was careful not to pierce the magnetic fields. I'd be toasted instantly from the radiation exposure, but the system could continue to operate.

Magnetic? Are the deuterium and antimatter stores metal? I suppose the Moses Effect shows magnetic fields can manipulate water but all matter/antimatter?

 

[sojourner]

^A powerful enough magnetic field can manipulate even organic matter.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Wouldn't a gravitational or repulser field make more sense?

 

[sojourner]

^Trek technology wise? you would think so. Just a failure of imagination on the writer's part.

 

[Timo]

Or simply a change in terminology. In the Star Trek era, "magnetic" is probably a generic expression for "attractive", so that magnetic boots are in fact gravitic ones, and magnetic storms are gravitic phenomena, etc.

OTOH, things in Trek power generation schemes are usually "plasma" as often as they are "antimatter". It shouldn't be much of a trick to contain antiplasma with magnetic fields.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MatthiasRussell]

I find Marina Sirtis magnetic.

 

[jgalley]

I find Marina Sirtis magnetic.

you mean gravitic!