Warp 10: The 'Brown Note' of Space Travel?

[PicardSpeedo]

Warp 10 has always been the subject of much controversy - what speed it actually is, whether it would actually be possible to ever get a starship successfully to Warp 10, and what the implications of traveling at a speed that makes you occupy every point in the universe simultaneously would be.

But what if we've been asking the wrong questions? What if Warp 10 is actually just the 'brown note' of space travel - the one specific speed that causes everything - metaphorically and literally - to crap its pants whenever the threshold is hit, but above which, and below which, smooth and safe travel is possible?

As an example, my 1993 Isuzu Wizard hates doing 60 miles per hour. Up until that threshold, the truck behaves normally, but as soon as it hits that magic number, the engine gets really loud, the transmission bucks and shudders, and the RPMs red-line. But once I hit 70 MPH, everything evens out again.

So what if Warp 10 is the outer-space equivalent of my Isuzu Wizard's garbage transmission? What if it's that one specific speed that makes warp engines inexplicably rip off (even though warp engines generate no actual thrust), and makes spaceships occupy every point in space simultaneously (while somehow preventing them from destroying the entire fabric of of space and time), and turns helmsmen and captains into sex-crazed lizards? What if, beyond that speed, everything is just fine, as shown in multiple episodes of Star Trek?

And how do we get there?

Unfortunately, it wasn't really explained in All Good Things.

 

[Cyke101]

Warp 10 has always been the subject of much controversy - what speed it actually is, whether it would actually be possible to ever get a starship successfully to Warp 10, and what the implications of traveling at a speed that makes you occupy every point in the universe simultaneously would be.

But what if we've been asking the wrong questions? What if Warp 10 is actually just the 'brown note' of space travel - the one specific speed that causes everything - metaphorically and literally - to crap its pants whenever the threshold is hit, but above which, and below which, smooth and safe travel is possible?

As an example, my 1993 Isuzu Wizard hates doing 60 miles per hour. Up until that threshold, the truck behaves normally, but as soon as it hits that magic number, the engine gets really loud, the transmission bucks and shudders, and the RPMs red-line. But once I hit 70 MPH, everything evens out again.

So what if Warp 10 is the outer-space equivalent of my Isuzu Wizard's garbage transmission? What if it's that one specific speed that makes warp engines inexplicably rip off (even though warp engines generate no actual thrust), and makes spaceships occupy every point in space simultaneously (while somehow preventing them from destroying the entire fabric of of space and time), and turns helmsmen and captains into sex-crazed lizards? What if, beyond that speed, everything is just fine, as shown in multiple episodes of Star Trek?

And how do we get there?

Unfortunately, it wasn't really explained in All Good Things.

I've always thought of Warp 10 as more of a label rather than an actual, quantifiable speed, and that's because of things like transwarp and quantum slipstream. Those two (among others) are much faster than any warp drive, but still not as fast as the implications of Warp 10.

As it is, Warp 10 is supposed to be infinite speed, but surely there's a lot of room for in between Warp 9.999~ and infinite speed.

 

[C.E. Evans]

IIRC, the whole idea of Warp 10 being an absolute value was due to warp engines becoming sharply less energy efficient beyond Warp 9.2+ or so, requiring exponentially more power to keep accelerating. Eventually, one would need infinite power to hit Warp 10 and then SPLAT!

As such, Warp 10 was supposed to be impossible to reach. No ship--regardless of its powerplant or propulsion system--could ever attain that speed. Even the galaxy-hopping Q couldn't (they'd play around in the Warp 9.999999999+ range or so).

Then came VOY's "Threshold" and that sure took care of things...


As far as the Warp 13 in the now defunct "All Good Things..." future, I think it was just a recalibration of the warp scale in which Warp 10 was no longer an absolute value and the power/speed curve was more shallow...

 

[Richard Baker]

I think both the rearranged TNG Warp scale and making 10 the absolute speed was stupid. I would like to think that the galaxy class could do warp 18 or whatever faster than Kirk's era, that is natural with the advanced technology. adding a bunch of nines to warp 9 to show ever and ever faster speeds sounds silly. Keeping warp 10 as the absolute everywhere at one time speed also does not make much sense to me- everywhere is a pretty big thing- not just everywhere in the milky way but virtually every galaxy in the entire universe. How can that being everywhere be caused by speed?- I never heard an explanation that made sense to me.
I might just be stupid, but having the warp system like this seems unnecessary and makes story telling sound awkward...

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

But what if we've been asking the wrong questions? What if Warp 10 is actually just the 'brown note' of space travel - the one specific speed that causes everything - metaphorically and literally - to crap its pants whenever the threshold is hit

Brannon Braga sure would know.

Hur hur hur [/dead horse]

 

[FormerLurker]

IIRC, the whole idea of Warp 10 being an absolute value was due to warp engines becoming sharply less energy efficient beyond Warp 9.2+ or so, requiring exponentially more power to keep accelerating. Eventually, one would need infinite power to hit Warp 10 and then SPLAT!

As such, Warp 10 was supposed to be impossible to reach. No ship--regardless of its powerplant or propulsion system--could ever attain that speed. Even the galaxy-hopping Q couldn't (they'd play around in the Warp 9.999999999+ range or so).

Then came VOY's "Threshold" and that sure took care of things...


As far as the Warp 13 in the now defunct "All Good Things..." future, I think it was just a recalibration of the warp scale in which Warp 10 was no longer an absolute value and the power/speed curve was more shallow...

I've always considered the Warp 13 thing in "All Good Things" to be a return, for whatever reason, to the warp scale from TOS. It's a ploy by Q to mess with an already confused Picard that Picard seemingly brushed off as absurd.

 

[Cyke101]

IIRC, the whole idea of Warp 10 being an absolute value was due to warp engines becoming sharply less energy efficient beyond Warp 9.2+ or so, requiring exponentially more power to keep accelerating. Eventually, one would need infinite power to hit Warp 10 and then SPLAT!

As such, Warp 10 was supposed to be impossible to reach. No ship--regardless of its powerplant or propulsion system--could ever attain that speed. Even the galaxy-hopping Q couldn't (they'd play around in the Warp 9.999999999+ range or so).

Then came VOY's "Threshold" and that sure took care of things...


As far as the Warp 13 in the now defunct "All Good Things..." future, I think it was just a recalibration of the warp scale in which Warp 10 was no longer an absolute value and the power/speed curve was more shallow...

Agreed on all points, really.

Funny enough, as Formerlurker kind of hints at, Warp 9 was meant to be an upper limit for a TOS ship, but not necessarily the among the fastest speeds in the universe; that's why we occasionally see objects faster than Warp 10 in the show. That's a small but important distinction, I think, because Warp 10 was never established to be anything extraordinary or "infinite" speed in TOS. And there will always be a ship at least *slightly* faster than our heroes for dramatic purposes.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Funny enough, as Formerlurker kind of hints at, Warp 9 was meant to be an upper limit for a TOS ship, but not necessarily the among the fastest speeds in the universe; that's why we occasionally see objects faster than Warp 10 in the show. That's a small but important distinction, I think, because Warp 10 was never established to be anything extraordinary or "infinite" speed in TOS. And there will always be a ship at least *slightly* faster than our heroes for dramatic purposes.

The only time I recall a specific comment in TOS about warp ten was in this scene in "The Changeling":

NOMAD: Inefficiency exists in the antimatter input valve. I will effect repair.
(The indicator board goes crazy.)
SCOTT: How are you doing that?
NOMAD: The energy release controls are also most inefficient. I shall effect repair.
ENGINEER: Warp eight, Mister Scott, and increasing.
SCOTT: Throw your dampers.
ENGINEER: Warp nine.
SCOTT: Cut your circuits, all of them.
ENGINEER: Warp 10, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: Impossible. It can't go that fast.
ENGINEER: It just won't stop, Mister Scott. Warp eleven!
KIRK: Nomad, stop what you're doing. Scotty?
NOMAD: Is there a problem, Creator? I have increased engine efficiency fifty seven percent.
KIRK: You will destroy my ship. Its structure cannot stand the stress of that much power. Turn off your repair operation.
NOMAD: Acknowledged. It is reversed as ordered, Creator.
KIRK: Mister Scott, give Sulu warp two and keep her there.
SCOTT: Aye, sir.

Certainly there's no suggestion of infinite speed; the Enterprise goes to higher warp factors (i.e., even faster) both here and in other episodes. I take Scott's comment of "impossible" as something consistent with Kirk's subsequent remark about the ship simply not being able to stand that much stress, at least in theory.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think both the rearranged TNG Warp scale and making 10 the absolute speed was stupid.

I think the original rationale behind it was to keep things simple (as far as the number of warp factors) and to keep ships from popping across the universe in the blink of an eye. Anywhere between Warp 9 and Warp 9.9 would still be "ludicrous speed," but at least there would be a sense that it still took some time to go from A to B rather than such trips be instantaneous (allowing dramatic races against time and for one ship to chase down another).

Funny enough, as Formerlurker kind of hints at, Warp 9 was meant to be an upper limit for a TOS ship, but not necessarily the among the fastest speeds in the universe; that's why we occasionally see objects faster than Warp 10 in the show. That's a small but important distinction, I think, because Warp 10 was never established to be anything extraordinary or "infinite" speed in TOS. And there will always be a ship at least *slightly* faster than our heroes for dramatic purposes.

Yep, which is probably why we ended up with stuff like transwarp conduits and slipstream drive during TNG and VOY.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

I've always thought of Warp 10 as more of a label rather than an actual, quantifiable speed, and that's because of things like transwarp and quantum slipstream. Those two (among others) are much faster than any warp drive, but still not as fast as the implications of Warp 10.

As it is, Warp 10 is supposed to be infinite speed, but surely there's a lot of room for in between Warp 9.999~ and infinite speed.

This was always how I always understood it too. That's also why I find the concept of getting there in 'Threshold' all the more ridiculous. Particularly as that is how they seem to describe it in the episode.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Academic.

In the TNG era tech manuals warp travel proceeds at n^3.3 until it gets near 10 then approaches infinity as n approaches 10. Obviously in AGT they used a different scale.

 

[PicardSpeedo]

Academic.

In the TNG era tech manuals warp travel proceeds at n^3.3 until it gets near 10 then approaches infinity as n approaches 10. Obviously in AGT they used a different scale.

It would be "academic" if Threshold had not specifically identified warp 10 as a quantifiable speed - one which turns senior staff into lizards, no less.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

It would be "academic" if Threshold had not specifically identified warp 10 as a quantifiable speed - one which turns senior staff into lizards, no less.

The TNG Technical Manual says that the "new" Warp 10 represents infinite speed, and thus cannot be reached because doing so would be a contradiction in terms. Spinoff-era warp speed is an asymptotic curve that never reaches the line marked 10. As you probably know.

As for VOY "Threshold," the producers didn't seem to get that memo. But if you allow for some semantic excuse regarding what "Warp 10" meant in "Threshold," the lizard thing is just an extrapolation of real human experience. For instance, I once hit 62 mph in a Chevette and my hair turned white.

 

[MacLeod]

It's one of those things we aren't supposed to pay to much attention to. As has been pointed out in TOS the ENT reached speeds of what Warp 14. So as others have said at some point a recalibration took place. So Warp 14 on the TOS Scale is Warp 9 on the new scale. As engines became more developed at Speeds of Warp 9.975 became sustanable another recalibration took place. After all which is easy to say Warp 13 or Warp 9.975?

 

[Starborn Dragon]

The speed of the Enterprises are on different scales.

But there is no such thing as we can't go faster than that.

Sybok pretty much stated something i had always believed myself.

 

[Ithekro]

How can one go faster than being everywhere at once?

Aside from time travel, where you can be everywhen at once. (Never blow up your ship when you do this, the universe will end, or possibly never have existed.)

 

[SPCTRE]

Re: All Good Things

If we're talking about writer's intent with regards to Warp 13 in "All Good Things", my interpretation is that it's clearly meant to impress upon the viewer that OMG THIS IS THE FUTURE and there has been technological advancement in several areas. The UFP has cloaking devices now, some weapons look differently (and are implied to be more devastating), and ships are faster now.

I could totally see Okuda/Sternbach et al letting that implausibility in the script of speeds >warp 10 fly simply because the recalibrated warp scale works so perfectly as an in-universe rationalization and the episode isn't explicit either way.

 

[Ithekro]

The Daystrom Institute website's version of transwarp drive (with power scales) works best for me. With Warp 10, 20, and 30 (and the like) being impossible to reach "infinites" on the power curves, but if you can leap past the "threshold" you get to another set of warp factors that use far less power than the "traditional" warp 9.99...etc... power curve. While you never go infinite speed as that needs infinite power, you go faster with less power requirements. Warp 13 being the same power requirement as TNG scale Warp 9.6 but being effectively 35 times faster.

Voyager would be seen as having Tom Paris straddling the threshold to transwarp, but in a dangerous manner. His instruments would read as "warp 10" because it has no way to read higher than that for what he was doing. He likely got past the threshold to what would effectively be something like Warp 10.1, which would read as some overly high warp 9.9999something normally if his power curve wasn't way off. The computer wouldn't know how to read that, and by the time they would check in the second flight, he and Janeway were occupied. Janeway considered the whole thing too dangerous and they didn't bother to investigate the data more closely. After they get home someone will find what happened and figure out what they did wrong. The new drives like the AGT Enterprise's that can go Warp 13 are the logical result (asuming that wasn't just a quantum slipstream drive in the image of a third nacelle).

The new drives just never go "Warp 10". Much like they say you can't actually go at Warp 1 (speed of light) because it would take infinite mass and energy, but you can travel a fraction under or over the speed of light with warp drives, just not light speed itself. If one orders Warp 1, or Warp 10 in the new system, it is actually Warp 1.000001 or Warp 10.000001, but the difference is accounted already.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

^ Thanks for the link to that, Ithekro.

 

[dswynne1]

I always thought that "Warp 11" should be infinite time and space. You know, just because. ;-)