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VoI Timeline - 2377 or 2378?

Waitasec - are you saying the writers are the ones who came up with the 41xxx = 2364 convention? Because it was the Star Trek Chronology which did that first, I believe.

TNG's producers defined the first season as "stardate year" 41xxx, so to speak, and "The Neutral Zone" established it as Gregorian year 2364. So it was the makers of the show (or rather, the writers of "The Neutral Zone") who established that convention. The Chronology simply followed that lead and extrapolated from it.

Actually all that the dialogue in "the Neutral Zone" establishes is that Stardate 41986.0 is in 2364. Nothing else. The Chronology (which isn't a canonical resource anyway) made an assumption based on that and got it wrong. The makes of the show subsequently clarified where stardates fall by the placement of real world events (like the festival of lights).


Because the novels, like many other non-cannon sources, make the assumption that stardates run from January to December, which isn't backed up bay any on screen evidence at all.

It isn't, but it's following the lead of the Chronology, something that the novels are expected by Paramount/CBS licensing to do in the absence of canonical evidence to the contrary.

But that's my point, there IS canonical evidence to the contrary.


Besides, by now, there is a fair amount of documentation in the novels that stardate years run from January to December, as seen with the stardates in the Titan novels, The Buried Age, and the like. Although stardate evidence in the novels themsleves is as inconsistent as stardate evidence in the shows, so maybe that isn't rigidly binding.

True and I wouldn't suggest that a change should be made to the way the novels handle stardate (since in most cases no time of year is given along with a stardate anyway).


While I agree that the time between stardates can vary in length on the show (and the article I posted the link to also says this), the TV shows only supports the idea that 1000 stardate = (approx) 1 year, not 41xxx = 2364, by the real world/datable events it places in episodes. In fact most the dating evidence support Stardates crossing parts of 2 consecutive years.

The real world information that Data gives in "Data's day" has to place the episodes stardates in/around October/November each year. Similarly with the information given in "11:59" and "Homstead", the stardates given in those epsiodes must be around those dates as well. You can't just take one piece of evidence like Picard saying it's 2364 in "The Neutral Zone" and ignore ignore another like Data saying it's the Hindu Festival of Lights in "Data's Day".
I am aware of those points and do not dispute them. But again, the precedent comes from the Chronology, and the books are expected to follow that lead even when its conjectures are inconsistent.

Which is fine and I accept that (and as I mentioned it's not that difficult to shift stuff if you want to follow the onscreen stardates). My point really is that 41xxx = 2364 is a misconception that isn't supported by the canon (of which the chronology isn't part).


In my personal chronology, for a long time I assumed that the first season of TNG began in mid-2363 and ended in mid-'64. But I've now brought my chronology in line with the Okudachron and novel assumptions because as a novelist I need to be consistent with the assumptions used by the book line. (Well, more or less; I tend to have the seasons only approximately run Jan-to-Dec rather than ending exactly on December 31st. And in my chrono, the fourth season of DS9 runs extra-long because it's the only way to fit The 34th Rule in there -- requiring the next couple of seasons to be extra-short to catch up with the DS9-R's assumption that "What You Leave Behind" was in December 2375.) It does create inconsistencies, yes, but what in Trek doesn't have inconsistencies?

To be honest I was the other way around. I always believed the stardates ran Jan to Dec and my fan fic reflected this. Since seeing the evindence to the contrary I've changed my personal continuity, and to be honest haven't really noticed any differance!
 
And you're wrong about when the first 50xxx stardate came. Such a stardate was given in the very first VGR episode that could possibly have such a stardate, "Basics Part II," the premiere of the third season. Its stardate was 50032.7. Indeed, the following dozen episodes also had stardates, as did all but four of that season's 26 episodes. As for DS9, they used stardates a lot less often, but we nonetheless got a 50xxx stardate in the second episode that could possibly have one, "The Ship," which had a stardate of 50049.3. So there was no period in which they "didn't know what to do" about the stardate.
...and as early as "Future Imperfect," "Jean-Luc" is shown referencing SD 58416 (albeit in an illusory context), a date which doesn't give Riker pause (unlike other elements of the charade), showing that TPTB already thought of 5xxxx as the natural progression after 49xxx.
 
What I wonder is, did the writers of TOS at any point start thinking of their stardates as a "natural progression" through the five-year mission? The dates progress from the 1000s to 5000s in the course of the show, reaching the latter numbers when the show was known to be approaching its demise at the three-year mark. Although admittedly the writers were already committed when going to the 4000s on the second season which was not yet known to be penultimate.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Actually all that the dialogue in "the Neutral Zone" establishes is that Stardate 41986.0 is in 2364. Nothing else.

Yes, and I've already stated my awareness of that fact, so you should know that I don't need it explained to me.

The Chronology (which isn't a canonical resource anyway) made an assumption based on that and got it wrong.

No, it didn't "get it wrong," it chose to interpret it in a way that you personally choose to disagree with. There is no "right" or "wrong" here -- it's all made up, it has inconsistencies, and different people make different choices about how to deal with those inconsistencies.

The makes of the show subsequently clarified where stardates fall by the placement of real world events (like the festival of lights).

No, they didn't. The stardates were never intended to convey detailed chronological information. The whole point of stardates was to convey no meaningful chronological information at all. Aside from the first two digits and the overall (but not invariable) tendency to increase from episode to episode, they were deliberately random. They weren't meant to be taken literally and analyzed to death, they were meant to be forgettable filler that only created the illusion of having meaning. The stardates weren't even chosen by the scriptwriters or the production staff. I believe they were left blank in the first-draft scripts and a minor staffer (perhaps the script coordinator) was responsible for inserting a random set of digits that was higher than the one from the previous week. That's all the thought or care that ever went into stardates. If a scriptwriter chose to ascribe a specific date to an episode such as the Hindu Festival of Lights, that was totally independent from the process that led to the stardate assigned to the script.

I don't dispute your premise that the occasional date/stardate equivalences can be used to create a reasonably consistent chronological model that places the beginning of a "stardate year" sometime in the middle of a Gregorian calendar year rather than on January 1st. That's a valid alternative interpretation. But just because it's possible for fans to extrapolate it after the fact, that doesn't mean it was the conscious intent of the show's makers at the time.


But that's my point, there IS canonical evidence to the contrary.

There's canonical evidence to the contrary of the Okudachron's dating for TWOK as well, but there are still plenty of novels that are based on the assumption that TWOK is in 2285. It's just something we're stuck with at this point.


Which is fine and I accept that (and as I mentioned it's not that difficult to shift stuff if you want to follow the onscreen stardates). My point really is that 41xxx = 2364 is a misconception that isn't supported by the canon (of which the chronology isn't part).

Again, it's not a misconception, because there's no "real" explanation when the whole universe is completely made up. We know that at least one episode with a 41xxx stardate happened during 2364. Therefore, it is not incorrect to say that the 41xxx stardate year overlaps with the Gregorian year 2364 to some extent. The only uncertainty is over how much overlap there is. And since it's a work of fiction, that's not a matter of objective reality, it's a matter of choice and opinion. You're perfectly entitled to your position, and it's an alternative theory that I don't have a problem with. But it's pretty obnoxious to treat your personally preferred model as a fundamental truth and insist that anyone who chooses a different interpretation is somehow out of touch with "reality." There is no reality. There's a TV show that a bunch of different people made up as they went along, often with contradictory assumptions. Fans are free to come up with different personal opinions on how to reconcile the inconsistencies, but it's just not cool to condemn others for choosing different interpretations.
 
Fans are free to come up with different personal opinions on how to reconcile the inconsistencies, but it's just not cool to condemn others for choosing different interpretations.
I agree with all that... but what about when others' interpretations are wrong? ;)
 
Here's a question, how many episodes actually state what the current year is? (and not just working it out via stardates or counting back from something etc)

Off the top of my head I can think of TNG: The Neutral Zone saying its 2364, (I think it was Data but its been a while since I've seen it) and VOY: Eye of the Needle with Chakotay saying its 2371
 
^^As I mentioned above, "The 37s" also gives the date as 2371. In "Homestead," Neelix says it's the 315th anniversary of First Contact, which would be April 5, 2378. I suppose that could fall under "counting back from something," but it's counted within the episode itself.
 
Therin and Trek, thanks for posting links to stardate calculation sites.

It would seem that, for the purists, the switch from 53xxx to 54xxx comes offset from January to December, but for the professional authors, it is January-December, as (I'm assuming without diggin' it out right now) in the Okudachron, which Paramount/Pocket makes you guys adhere to for internal consistency.

Checking out posts from both parties, it seems each of you make valid and legitimate claims to your practices.

I guess if I gotta go with one or the other, I'll do the January-December, as it seems more internally consistent given all the books...as well as having major events (Wolf 359, Battle of Sector 001) screw up the crew's plans for major holidays.
 
...Assuming that the crew celebrates Christmas or the associated Earth northern hemisphere midwinter festivals, or considers the Earth New Year a noteworthy event.

I could see some of the Earthlings among our heroes doing that. But Worf probably wouldn't, regardless of what his foster parents used to do, as he's still all worked up about Klingon festivals instead. The Crushers would be Lunatics and colonials, not Earthlings. LaForge supposedly was a Navy Brat and wouldn't have stuck long with any particular planetary calendar. Data is/was a case unto himself. Of the DS9 heroes, Sisko would probably be of a traditionalist Earthling family, while the other humans might have more "mobile" backgrounds and more distance between their current lifestyles and their birthworld's traditions. So not everybody would get the joke when a Christmas Special hit them.

As for the VOY heroes, they had crises all the time, not just on season rollovers...

Timo Saloniemi
 
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