• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Vader Through the Years: Obi-Wan Kenobi spoilers inside

fireproof78

Fleet Admiral
Admiral
An ongoing discussion in the Obi-Wan thread has led to the discussion of Vader and his presentation across the various films and shows. This lead to argument about the Rogue One Scene and if it fits with Vader as presented in A New Hope. Out of curiosity I found a clip that attempted to edit Rogue One and A New Hope together:
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

I was curious to see what people thought of Vader's portrayal in both those films, but also recently watching Obi-Wan and Vader's presence in that show. Do you think that Vader works well in light of his presence in ANH or are there differences that stand out?

Personally, I find Rogue One a bit jarring going in to ANH but it is still workable. Obi-Wan feels a bit closer to ANH though.
 
I think it works fine. He went full on slasher monster in RO because the plans were literally within his grasp (or do we actually think that door jammed all by itself?) Another few seconds and he would have had them; job done!
I guess the only real oddity is within ANH itself. One moment he's all hellbent "tear this ship apart until you find those plans!" then literally 5 mins later he's delegating "send a detachment down to retrieve it".
Maybe offscreen he got new orders to bring the Princess to Tarkin personally for interrogation, forcing him to just throw up a blockade and leave it to the troops to hold the planet up by it's ankles and shake . . . but as presented in the movie, it seems like a case of the plot driving the character rather than the other way around. Not that it's a big deal since it's really not his story anyway.

Honestly the biggest change in his presentation was between tESB & RotJ, but that's not an inconsistency, it's character progression. In tESB he's hell bent on getting Luke and trying to be sneaky about it, right up until Palpatine busts him and yanks his leash, hard. Then in RotJ he's basically defeated and hopeless, resigned to his fate, unable to see a way out.

In Kenobi we're in an entirely different situation to either RO and ANH. For Vader, this isn't some bidding of his master, or some errand he's forced to run for yet another simpering Imperial bureaucrat who's neck he's not allowed to crush. It's all very VERY personal.
Turns out people behave differently in different situations, at different times, and under different circumstances! Who knew?! :lol:

It's also worth remembering the meta-context of it all. Vader wasn't really conceived as the "big bad". He was the henchman, a black knight in service to the wicked Lord, holding the princess in the tall tower as the dashing hero comes to her rescue. So his behaviour in ANH was written with that in mind. RO didn't have the luxury of a blank slate since it needed to serve both the PT and the OT. Kenobi is 100% a PT follow-on. Yes it's smack between the trilogies and yes there's a trajectory both characters need to be on when all's said and done, but we're not there yet.

And yeah, the corridor scene was a late addition, but do you know what else was? Vader surviving ANH. Hell, it was practically an afterthought! Film-making like any form of storytelling is a fluid process, subject to all kinds of changes and alterations in the course of exploring what the story wants to be. "Original intent" is not some holy writ to adhere to, it's a starting point from which to plot a course, and most often that involves going places that weren't initially planned for. And that's FINE.
 
Last edited:
And yeah, the corridor scene was a late addition, but do you know what else was? Vader surviving ANH. Hell, it was practically an afterthought! Film-making like any form of storytelling is a fluid process, subject to all kinds of changes and alterations in the course of exploring what the story wants to be. "Original intent" is not some holy writ to adhere to, it's a starting point from which to plot a course, and most often that involves going places that weren't initially planned for. And that's FINE.
I should note that my argument against the corridor scene wasn't because it was a late addition. Only that a poster argued it was the culmination of the film itself, which I find odd.

Vader's growth and development is pretty interesting, given the way Lucas' drafts went, moving Vader from a separate character to Luke's father to Luke's father in reality. More impressively is the simple way in which it works with Obi-Wan's talk with Luke in ANH.
 
Only that a poster argued it was the culmination of the film itself, which I find odd.
An argument I disagree with, but I already went over my reasoning for that in the other thread.
Vader's growth and development is pretty interesting, given the way Lucas' drafts went, moving Vader from a separate character to Luke's father to Luke's father in reality. More impressively is the simple way in which it works with Obi-Wan's talk with Luke in ANH.
One of ANH's strengths is (believe it or not) Lucas's writing. All those multiple drafts really helped him par down the script so that for the most part it only conveys the essential information, but also avoid too much specificity where possible, which consequently left a lot of it fairly easy to interpret in any number of ways. It was an agonising process and I'm sure Lucas would sooner walk across hot coals that attempt that again ever, but it did pay off.

Personally I'm a fan of how Vader is characterised in tESB. It seems simple enough on the surface, but if you read between the lines there's a LOT going on there.

A detail people often miss, or mistake for a plot hole is that the Emperor is seemingly the one to tell him about Luke, despite the fact we're explicitly told and shown that Vader is already well aware and very much on the hunt.
Indeed that whole conversation with the Emperor in a brilliant bit of writing because it's actually two conversations happening at once. There's the words they're actually saying to each other, and there's the words they're much more loudly NOT saying to each other. It's verbal chess. Nothing is meant at face value, every sentence has an unspoken meaning. The entire interchange between them is a rosetta stone that tells you all you need to know about their dynamic, and it's the lynchpin of Vader whole arc in the movie.

I know I said the biggest shift in Vader happens between Empire and Jedi, but that's not entirely accurate because the shift actually occurs right at the end of Empire, when he doesn't bother to kill Piett. That's the moment when he just deflated, knowing he'd failed, that his fate was sealed, that he has no way out of this hell he's trapped himself in.

All movie long he's been laser focused on one thing: capturing Luke. He didn't care about the rebels; he scoured the galaxy, mounted a massive ground assault, and committed a fleet of destroyers all to achieve that goal. Nothing else mattered.
The whole time he's murdering his officers left, right, and centre; not because he's angry at them, or because he's being petulant, or petty. It's because they're not people to him, they're parts in a machine. So when said machine isn't doing what it's supposed to, he's just tearing out the faulty parts and jamming in replacements so he can keep going.

So what changed at the end? Why didn't he punish Piett when the Falcon jumped to hyperspace? It's because once it jumped away . . . that was it. No more purpose. I think in that moment he's just so consumed by self pity that he's forgotten Piett is even there. Hell if anything he may even feel like he deserves to have is prize ripped away from him, so complete was his failure. He offered Luke what he thought was "the only way" and he chose to fall to his death. That possibility didn't even occur to him. Who in their right mind chooses death over power?! I think he's so thrown for a loop in that moment that we see the effects of it right up until Endor.
 
I know I said the biggest shift in Vader happens between Empire and Jedi, but that's not entirely accurate because the shift actually occurs right at the end of Empire, when he doesn't bother to kill Piett. That's the moment when he just deflated, knowing he'd failed, that his fate was sealed, that he has no way out of this hell he's trapped himself in.
I assumed he was just so distracted, emotionally distraught by his son that he just didn't bother.
 
Yeah, Vader's still his usual self at the start of ROTJ. Lucas deleted the scene with Moff Jerjerrod delivering to Vader the Emperor's order not to enter the throne room, and he also deleted the scene of Vader reaching out telepathically to Luke. That preserves the status quo until the Rebel commando team arrives at Endor. The Emperor is still boss, but Vader does not seem to have been demoted in any way.
 
Yeah, Vader's still his usual self at the start of ROTJ. Lucas deleted the scene with Moff Jerjerrod delivering to Vader the Emperor's order not to enter the throne room, and he also deleted the scene of Vader reaching out telepathically to Luke. That preserves the status quo until the Rebel commando team arrives at Endor. The Emperor is still boss, but Vader does not seem to have been demoted in any way.
I don't think he's ever demoted in any sense, but he is kept on a much shorter leash. The Moff Jerjerrod stuff was superfluous, though I think the intent there was to show the audience that Vader was very much in the dog house.
 
An argument I disagree with, but I already went over my reasoning for that in the other thread.

One of ANH's strengths is (believe it or not) Lucas's writing. All those multiple drafts really helped him par down the script so that for the most part it only conveys the essential information, but also avoid too much specificity where possible, which consequently left a lot of it fairly easy to interpret in any number of ways. It was an agonising process and I'm sure Lucas would sooner walk across hot coals that attempt that again ever, but it did pay off.

Personally I'm a fan of how Vader is characterised in tESB. It seems simple enough on the surface, but if you read between the lines there's a LOT going on there.

A detail people often miss, or mistake for a plot hole is that the Emperor is seemingly the one to tell him about Luke, despite the fact we're explicitly told and shown that Vader is already well aware and very much on the hunt.
Indeed that whole conversation with the Emperor in a brilliant bit of writing because it's actually two conversations happening at once. There's the words they're actually saying to each other, and there's the words they're much more loudly NOT saying to each other. It's verbal chess. Nothing is meant at face value, every sentence has an unspoken meaning. The entire interchange between them is a rosetta stone that tells you all you need to know about their dynamic, and it's the lynchpin of Vader whole arc in the movie.

I know I said the biggest shift in Vader happens between Empire and Jedi, but that's not entirely accurate because the shift actually occurs right at the end of Empire, when he doesn't bother to kill Piett. That's the moment when he just deflated, knowing he'd failed, that his fate was sealed, that he has no way out of this hell he's trapped himself in.

All movie long he's been laser focused on one thing: capturing Luke. He didn't care about the rebels; he scoured the galaxy, mounted a massive ground assault, and committed a fleet of destroyers all to achieve that goal. Nothing else mattered.
The whole time he's murdering his officers left, right, and centre; not because he's angry at them, or because he's being petulant, or petty. It's because they're not people to him, they're parts in a machine. So when said machine isn't doing what it's supposed to, he's just tearing out the faulty parts and jamming in replacements so he can keep going.

So what changed at the end? Why didn't he punish Piett when the Falcon jumped to hyperspace? It's because once it jumped away . . . that was it. No more purpose. I think in that moment he's just so consumed by self pity that he's forgotten Piett is even there. Hell if anything he may even feel like he deserves to have is prize ripped away from him, so complete was his failure. He offered Luke what he thought was "the only way" and he chose to fall to his death. That possibility didn't even occur to him. Who in their right mind chooses death over power?! I think he's so thrown for a loop in that moment that we see the effects of it right up until Endor.

Interesting point. I never interpreted it this way. I always had the impression that the confrontation with Luke fundamentally changed something with him in the way he saw himself and his relationship with Sidious. Igniting a small flickering light of empathy and compassion in him that even Luke could sense in him at a later point. Something that was lost in all the years being a Sith.
 
An ongoing discussion in the Obi-Wan thread has led to the discussion of Vader and his presentation across the various films and shows. This lead to argument about the Rogue One Scene and if it fits with Vader as presented in A New Hope.

I was curious to see what people thought of Vader's portrayal in both those films, but also recently watching Obi-Wan and Vader's presence in that show. Do you think that Vader works well in light of his presence in ANH or are there differences that stand out?

Personally, I find Rogue One a bit jarring going in to ANH but it is still workable. Obi-Wan feels a bit closer to ANH though.
I always kind of felt that Vader was a henchman. As a kid, I thought he was Tarkin's in ANH, but I realized he was obviously the Emperor's in TESB and ROTJ.

When the Original Trilogy ended, I actually thought the perceived notion of Vader as the one the greatest movie villains of all time was overrated. Yes, he Force-choked a few lackeys and schooled his son in a sparring match, but it seemed to me Vader's reputation we bigger than his actual deeds. IMO, the depiction of Vader in Rogue One and Obi-Wan Kenobi as being far more ruthless and deadly than he was in the movies shows why so many Imperials fear him. He's more than the Emperor's eyes and ears--he's also the Emperor's iron fist as well.
 
With regard to Piett I think I always assumed that Vader didn't kill him because it was the first time he'd failed him, and that there was a three strikes kinda scenario going on. He does tell Ozzel "you have failed me for the last time."

I do think Luke choosing to fall bothered him somewhat. I do wonder at what point Lucas decided on a redemptive arc for him, he's vicious in TESB but does he kill anyone other than the Emperor in ROTJ?

I always note as well that the final straw might be Palpatine telling Luke to take his father's place at his side. He must have a flashback to the look on Dooku's face just before he killed him. Obviously there's a lot going on behind the mask in that final battle though. Discovering he has a daughter as well as a son, seeing his son choose not to give into hate, seeing his master offering Luke his job if he kills him and then seeing his son tortured

Here's a question. When Vader makes his offer to Luke in TESB, is it bullshit or is he actually genuine in suggesting they can kill the Emperor? I always assumed the former (which is odd, he's been a Sith a long time now and must realise the Emperor will groom Luke to replace him)
 
Here's a question. When Vader makes his offer to Luke in TESB, is it bullshit or is he actually genuine in suggesting they can kill the Emperor? I always assumed the former (which is odd, he's been a Sith a long time now and must realise the Emperor will groom Luke to replace him)

I think that offer was totally genuine. Vader hates Palpatine, and the rule of the Sith is 'one to hold power, one to crave it.' Vader was talking about overthrowing the emperor to Padme as far back as his Mustafar duel with Obi-wan. In his mind, whoever Luke teams up with is going to win- Vader wants it to be him. If Luke had accepted, Vader would have whisked him away for training and made up some lie to tell the emperor about he chose the 'die' option in 'he will join us or die.'
 
^ Yes and oddly I think Palpatine would have wanted him to do this!

Not wanted, perhaps, but expected. The first tenet of the Sith is survival of the fittest. If Vader became powerful enough to defeat him, Palps would have accepted it even as he did his level best to destroy his apprentice.
 
With regard to Piett I think I always assumed that Vader didn't kill him because it was the first time he'd failed him, and that there was a three strikes kinda scenario going on. He does tell Ozzel "you have failed me for the last time."

Or I wonder if Vader thought it over. They had C-3PO on the Falcon. Luke came in an X-wing. Chances of R2-D2 being there, high.
Anakin/Vader knows R2 can get people out of anything. Piett can't be at fault for an R2 related fix.
 
Here's a question. When Vader makes his offer to Luke in TESB, is it bullshit or is he actually genuine in suggesting they can kill the Emperor? I always assumed the former (which is odd, he's been a Sith a long time now and must realise the Emperor will groom Luke to replace him)

100% genuine. In that moment, Vader's most heartfelt dream for the future is to have his son by his side ruling the Empire. And I'm sure that finally being rid of the Emperor is a close second. No question in my mind that Vader meant every word, and was filled with even more despair and self-loathing when Luke chose to risk his own death rather than join him.

In a way, I think it's one of the most pivotal moments in the trilogy, and not just because Luke learns the truth. Seeing Luke's reaction to the truth clearly has a profound effect on Vader. When they next interact, on Endor, you can feel Vader's hesitation in dealing with Luke. The conflict in him. He doesn't believe that he, or Luke, can overcome the Emperor and that Luke will soon either replace him as Palpatine's apprentice or die. But you can almost taste the longing in him, when he's talking to him on the landing platform. He wishes there was some other path forward. Which Luke will eventually show him in the throne room, completing Anakin's redemption.
 
Watching the ending of "Rogue One" and then immediately watching the beginning of ANH, I can see how there could be more urgency in R1 because once Vader and crew board the disabled rebel flagship, shipboard activity shows a bunch of people heading to the docking bay. So Vader is scrambling to get hold of those plans before the rebels can escape via their smaller docked vessel and then jump to hyperspace to go who-knows-where.

Apparently in the time between R1 when Vader goes back to the Star Destroyer, they manage to get a lock on the Tantive IV's course and follow them to Tatooine. Once there and they pull the ship in, the rebels definitely aren't going anywhere. If they happened to jettison escape pods, which they did, then those can easily be tracked, which is what happened. And if somebody tries to escape the planet with those plans, well, how could they possibly get past the Imperial blockade, right? Here Vader is pretty confident, as he declares, "There will be no one to stop us this time."

Kor
 
With regard to Piett I think I always assumed that Vader didn't kill him because it was the first time he'd failed him, and that there was a three strikes kinda scenario going on. He does tell Ozzel "you have failed me for the last time."
I never really thought about it, but my thoughts now would be that he was too distracted by what had happened with Luke, and had pretty much given up.
Here's a question. When Vader makes his offer to Luke in TESB, is it bullshit or is he actually genuine in suggesting they can kill the Emperor? I always assumed the former (which is odd, he's been a Sith a long time now and must realise the Emperor will groom Luke to replace him)
I always thought it was genuine, even before we got more than just the Original Trilogy. Characters like Vader and the Emperor are always betraying each other, and now that we've seen more of their relationship it's clear they aren't particularly fond of each other. They were both a means to an end at the end of the Clone Wars, for Palpatine, Vader gave him his chance to wipe out the Jedi, and for Vader, Palpatine was his chance to save Padme, and once that was over they were basically stuck with each other. I can pretty much gaurentee you if a better apprentice came along, Palpatine would have dropped Vader in a hot second, and if Vader got a real opportunity to kill Palpatine he would not have hesitated. Hell, we saw good ol' Sheev pretty much do it once he was face to face with Luke and saw what he was capable of.
 
Last edited:
I didn't overthink it too much: Vader's encounter with Luke has a tremendous emotional impact on him, and he was mentally overwhelmed at the time the Falcon escaped. I think he was just too pre-occupied to be bothered by Force choking anyone in that moment- he had a lot to process.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top