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Using Alan Sinclair TOS .dwg for my project

circusdog

Lieutenant
Red Shirt
As an Autodesk Inventor learning project, I am trying to model the TOS Enterprise from .dwg files I found on the web by Alan Sinclair. I have been working on it for about two weeks, and have managed to get some things modeled despite Inventor quirks.

There are a few things that escape me in fine details that I thought someone here could help me.

The extrusions on the sides of the secondary hull have a grill in the side views but not in the front view. I can't tell how deep they go, or how they go around the front part.

I can't seem to model the tear-drop shaped decks on the primary hull. Inventor complains that the curves are too complex and can't merge them. I can get the front half easily with a revolve, but the back end escapes me.

Thanks!
 
As an Autodesk Inventor learning project, I am trying to model the TOS Enterprise from .dwg files I found on the web by Alan Sinclair. I have been working on it for about two weeks, and have managed to get some things modeled despite Inventor quirks.

There are a few things that escape me in fine details that I thought someone here could help me.

The extrusions on the sides of the secondary hull have a grill in the side views but not in the front view. I can't tell how deep they go, or how they go around the front part.

I can't seem to model the tear-drop shaped decks on the primary hull. Inventor complains that the curves are too complex and can't merge them. I can get the front half easily with a revolve, but the back end escapes me.

Thanks!

My Inventor time is limited to 10 weeks of class so bear with me. The teardrop is not quite accurate on the Sinclair drawings. You're going to have to rebuild it from scratch. I'm working on a 3D AutoCAD version of the Sinclair plans and I've got the secondary hull pretty much finished. I'll attach a pic.
secondary_hull-model.jpg


Larger version.

If you look at the side view of the ship you can see how far the grilles run forward from the cutout. I just took that shape around the side and you get what you see here.
 
The teardrop is not quite accurate on the Sinclair drawings. You're going to have to rebuild it from scratch.
What did you base yours on?
If you look at the side view of the ship you can see how far the grilles run forward from the cutout. I just took that shape around the side and you get what you see here.
Ok, here is mine after your suggestion:

tos1.gif

Thanks!
 
Hi Circusdog!

I'm sort of excited to see someone else taking on the same project I did... ie, making the Enterprise in a CAD package.

I've got a finished Enterprise (well, finished EXTERNALLY, though I'm still building the internals as the mood hits me), done entirely in Pro/ENGINEER (Wildfire v4.0). I also chose to use Sinclair's drawings as my primary reference. I can give you quite a few "pointers" if you'd like them. Or you can just review my (old) thread...

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=89810

I have to point out, the "ribs" as you've "fixed" them, above, are incorrect. I had the same issue when I was making my own. I recommend going to posts 194 and 197 in my thread... this will be of some help to you.

There are significant parallels between what you're doing and what I did. By the way, I've worked with Autodesk Inventor extensively, though Pro/E has always been my tool of choice (with Solidworks my second choice). Inventor has one advantage over Pro/E... the ability to easily control constraints (Pro/E creates constraints on its own and you have to "outsmart" the software sometimes to make something other than what the software "thinks you really want".)

My first piece of advice is to use Alan's drawings as TEMPLATES. But to NOT simply use the drafting features of his work in your 3D model. Put the DXF import onto a layer, lock that layer, and then create your own sketches to do your shaping from. Trust me... it will come back to bite you later if you don't. His work is nice enough, overall... but there are some of his 2D draft entities which don't fully intersect with the entities they're supposed to connect to, and other cases where there is not true tangency between his draft entities when there should be. And in the case of complex curves, you'll find that they break down in some cases... and that you can create the same curvature using splines you draw yourself and get a much simpler, cleaner, and less-computationally-intensive model to boot.

His work was designed to be 2D. It's very NICE 2D work. But it's not really ideal for what you're doing. "Trace" his work, and you'll thank me later!

(FYI, I didn't even exactly do that... I used his work, but also drawings from several other sources, and made choices as to which I'd most closely emulate... and in some cases even deviated further from this when none of the available choices made perfect sense... such as the inconsistent "waterline markings" on the secondary hull, or the exact locations of windows, or the like.)

Now, about the B/C-deck superstructure... you can do this quite easily in Inventor... but not if you're trying to do it from the curves Sinclair provided. I tried that at first myself, and rapidly gave up (in fact, this is what convinced me to just redraw the entire revolved profile and only "trace" shapes, using my own CAD package's tools.)

The tool you need to use is a revolved sweep (I forget what it's called in Inventor, but the same feature is present in both Pro/E and Inventor). You'll need to create a set of curves to sweep around. The trick is to ensure that the curves match up "above the hull surface" but that you actually are creating the feature deeper in... I just did mine three meters below the "top" of the primary hull shape. I created a cylinder, the diameter of the bridge, first. I then revolved the front section, leaving a "pie with a wedge missing at the back." I then sketched the section... copying those edges but terminating below the surface, as I said, by three meters. I made sure that my "path" could be tweaked, later. I then just swept the profile. It didn't match the top-down blueprint shape exactly at first, so I had to tweak the parameters of the conic path (and the angle of the "missing pie wedge" for that matter) to get the shape, as seen from the top view and the side view, to be "just right." But it worked out quite nicely in the end, didn't it?

EDIT: Adding a link to the best reference post re: the ribs, to save you a few mouse-clicks:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2977846&postcount=197
 
I can give you quite a few "pointers" if you'd like them. Or you can just review my (old) thread...
Much appreciated!
I have to point out, the "ribs" as you've "fixed" them, above, are incorrect.
That looked like my first try, so I sort of went back to it. The ribs now extrude symmetrically from the surface by the width of the rib. Right now, I only filletted the outside end. It is hard to tell from those pics if the ribs are just raised or symmetrical. Maybe I should visit the Smithsonian (only 14 miles away).

Here are the "new" old ribs:
tos2.gif

My first piece of advice is to use Alan's drawings as TEMPLATES.
I know what you mean. Many of the curves are not closed and some overlap. Very frustrating. Inventor doesn't really do layers, but I have been using sketches as if they were layers, and copy/paste elements from the .dwg as needed. I have to rotate most of it and then move it where I need it to be.
Now, about the B/C-deck superstructure... you can do this quite easily in Inventor... but not if you're trying to do it from the curves Sinclair provided. I tried that at first myself, and rapidly gave up (in fact, this is what convinced me to just redraw the entire revolved profile and only "trace" shapes, using my own CAD package's tools.)

The tool you need to use is a revolved sweep (I forget what it's called in Inventor, but the same feature is present in both Pro/E and Inventor). You'll need to create a set of curves to sweep around. The trick is to ensure that the curves match up "above the hull surface" but that you actually are creating the feature deeper in... I just did mine three meters below the "top" of the primary hull shape. I created a cylinder, the diameter of the bridge, first. I then revolved the front section, leaving a "pie with a wedge missing at the back." I then sketched the section... copying those edges but terminating below the surface, as I said, by three meters. I made sure that my "path" could be tweaked, later. I then just swept the profile. It didn't match the top-down blueprint shape exactly at first, so I had to tweak the parameters of the conic path (and the angle of the "missing pie wedge" for that matter) to get the shape, as seen from the top view and the side view, to be "just right."
I still can't quite understand. Inventor has SWEEP (one profile following a 3D spline) and LOFT (one profile melding into another profile along a "rail"). I got real close with the same "pie" idea using revolve followed by a loft (and I am working below the saucer surface) but it wouldn't follow the side profile to my liking. It would make a swoosh that made me laugh hysterically right before I deleted it.

Do you think you could show me step-by-step how you made it? Or, can you export a .STP file?
 
The teardrop is not quite accurate on the Sinclair drawings. You're going to have to rebuild it from scratch.
What did you base yours on?
If you look at the side view of the ship you can see how far the grilles run forward from the cutout. I just took that shape around the side and you get what you see here.
Ok, here is mine after your suggestion:


Thanks!

Looks like I pointed you in the wrong direction. I'll have to correct mine. I had to create a new teardrop from nothing based closely on the Sinclair but built in a way that AutoCAD2008 would loft. Unfortunately I don't have access to '08 anymore so what I have I'll have to make work.
 
Looks like I pointed you in the wrong direction. I'll have to correct mine.
From the looks of things, there isn't a definitive right direction.;)

I read a post about colors, and was reminded of a story about trying to make the Orion slave girl green. The test shots kept coming back flesh tone. Finally the make-up guy talked to the film guy and told him she was supposed to be green. The film guy had been compensating all along.
I had to create a new teardrop from nothing based closely on the Sinclair but built in a way that AutoCAD2008 would loft. Unfortunately I don't have access to '08 anymore so what I have I'll have to make work.
Do you still have the files? Maybe I can import them into Inventor.
 
I still can't quite understand. Inventor has SWEEP (one profile following a 3D spline) and LOFT (one profile melding into another profile along a "rail"). I got real close with the same "pie" idea using revolve followed by a loft (and I am working below the saucer surface) but it wouldn't follow the side profile to my liking. It would make a swoosh that made me laugh hysterically right before I deleted it.

Do you think you could show me step-by-step how you made it? Or, can you export a .STP file?
Well, "Lofting" is possibly your best tool, overall... provided that you create tangency references up-front.

I'm going to discuss my own process over in my own thread... this one:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=144181

Feel free to referrence my process. It works quite well for me, and I know that you ought to be able to do the same thing using Inventor.

By the way, the TMP-era B/C-deck superstructure is far more complicated than the TOS-era one, so you should have a lot less steps to do that than I'll be demonstrating in my thread.
 
Well, "Lofting" is possibly your best tool, overall... provided that you create tangency references up-front.
Ok, I'll have to look up "tangency references". My geometry is a bit rusty, and I've only been working with Inventor about 6 months.
I'm going to discuss my own process over in my own thread...
Thanks!
Posted now... see this post:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=5068593&postcount=21
 
I did a quick "google" search to see if there's a swept blend feature in Inventor, as I seem to recall there being. I didn't find a lot (Inventor is less common among professional CAD software than most other packages out there), but I did find some:

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/Autod...-a-how-to-video-Swept-Blend-2011/td-p/2931660

http://wikihelp.autodesk.com/Revit/...ating2679/2691-Creating2691/2692-Editing_2692

http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=82401

http://acad-atc.ic.polyu.edu.hk/inventor/02part.pdf

To show you how a swept blend works in Pro/E, here's an interesting YouTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2GV01PQb74

I use a slightly different workflow (I HATE the new "pallets" and the like... I'm "old school" I guess?) but the concept is exactly what you see in the video above.
 
Looks like I pointed you in the wrong direction. I'll have to correct mine.
From the looks of things, there isn't a definitive right direction.;)

I read a post about colors, and was reminded of a story about trying to make the Orion slave girl green. The test shots kept coming back flesh tone. Finally the make-up guy talked to the film guy and told him she was supposed to be green. The film guy had been compensating all along.
I had to create a new teardrop from nothing based closely on the Sinclair but built in a way that AutoCAD2008 would loft. Unfortunately I don't have access to '08 anymore so what I have I'll have to make work.
Do you still have the files? Maybe I can import them into Inventor.

I've got them. If you PM your email address I'll send it along.
 
Well, I have a few more niggles.

Not sure what to call it, there is a plate on the top of the primary hull over the pylon and connecting to the impulse housing, like a conduit. Any good aft view pics out there?

There are 3 odd little straps connecting the front nacelle dome to the tube collar on each nacelle, one at 6, one at 2 and one at 10 o'clock (or so) that I thought at first were busted lights. You can almost make them out on this pic.

Thanks!
 
That's weird. It could be because there is extraneous geometry in there. When I get home on Monday I'll try again.
It opens fine in Autocad Mechanical 2011 and shows a wireframe, but I was expecting to see a model. Maybe I just misunderstood what it was going to be.

Inventor seems to have trouble actually importing .dwg and .dxf drawings into sketches. We have been looking for support on that issue from them but no joy yet.
 
Well, I have a few more niggles.

Not sure what to call it, there is a plate on the top of the primary hull over the pylon and connecting to the impulse housing, like a conduit. Any good aft view pics out there?

There are 3 odd little straps connecting the front nacelle dome to the tube collar on each nacelle, one at 6, one at 2 and one at 10 o'clock (or so) that I thought at first were busted lights. You can almost make them out on this pic.

Thanks!
You can do a pretty good job of the "plate" you mention just from Alan's drawings... the shape isn't terribly complex. There are minor differences in this between the first-pilot, second pilot, and production versions, however, involving the thin strip going down the center.

Most people call this the "accelerator" but to me, it's what it is on the model, in the "real" ship... a structural plate used to affix the saucer onto the dorsal (or rather, to the separation plate assembly at the top of the dorsal). On the real model, they could pull this strip off to get access to the hardware used to bolt the saucer to the dorsal.

In any case, I just used Alan's drawing there for my primary reference, along with a few screen-caps from the couple of times on-screen that we see that part of the ship, and a couple of photos from the Smithsonian restoration record... and it turned out quite nicely.

***

The three little tabs around the nacelle caps (often referred to as the bussard collectors) are actually little metal brackets mounted into the wood of the nacelle body. They have small screws going in, facing towards the nacelle axis, to hold the frosted dome in place. They are just metal strips, rounded on the end. If you watch closely... or better yet, head over to the Smithsonian... you can see the screws! :)
 
That's weird. It could be because there is extraneous geometry in there. When I get home on Monday I'll try again.
It opens fine in Autocad Mechanical 2011 and shows a wireframe, but I was expecting to see a model. Maybe I just misunderstood what it was going to be.

Inventor seems to have trouble actually importing .dwg and .dxf drawings into sketches. We have been looking for support on that issue from them but no joy yet.

There is supposed to be actual solid geometry there. There are a few copies in there. It's my working file to build up the egg and cut out windows.
 
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