TWOK - Trek's New Direction

[The_Beef]

Hey guys, I've been an off-and-on poster here for about 6 years (this is a new profile, its been so long I couldn't remember any of my old info). Anyway, I'm doing some research on Wrath of Khan for a sci-fi film course I'm taking this semester and wanted to see if I could get some fans' opinions on some things. Now, part of my paper requires just looking at normal fan buzz about the film, so I've been sifting through threads about the film already just to see what's already been said. Now I'd like to bring up a few points and see what you guys think about the subject.

My question is, what do you guys think of the direction Trek took with Star Trek II? I know its ancient history at this point, but looking back at it, the atmosphere of TWOK and the TOS films that followed it is radically different from TOS and TMP. Very nautical, much more militaristic. There are similarities too, of course. TWOK, its themes, and its character interaction are in many ways much more like the Trek of TOS than TMP, which looking back I know many see as the anomaly. Also, the characters behave more like living, breathing humans than they did previously, bringing the characterization of TOS out of the 60s TV era and fully onto the big screen (TMP did this some as well, but it wasn't the primary focus). I guess what I'm getting at is that this seems like the moment when TOS grew up and its interesting to analyze some of the directions that process decided to take. I'm just curious to see what you all have to say on the subject. Especially if there are any fans here from back then, I'd be very interested to see what contemporary fans thought about it at the time and what they think now. Thanks for your time .

 

[RyanLevy]

I noticed that TWOK was a much more action-oriented movie, with character development, whereas TMP was, to me at least, a movie where they tried to do as many special effects as possible to the point where there are seemingly endless scenes of hazy backgrounds. From TWOK all the way up to Nemesis, there has been a ship-battle, or potential conflict. There didn't seem to be much tension in TMP, except between Kirk and Decker

 

[felixofgolden]

It looked like they brought Harve Bennett on board to make a good film that just happened to be Star Trek. Not necessarily a "Star Trek film", if that makes sense.
As far as themes go, the basic themes of a story (from what I recall of writing classes 20 years ago), are Man against Man, Man against Machine, Man against Nature, and Man against Himself.
TWOK it appeared, tried to use these, which made it a good all around story that even non Trek fans could enjoy - without knowing anything about Trek.
Man against Man - Kirk and Khan.
Man against Himself - Kirk dealing with getting older.
Man against Nature - Mankind creating the Genesis torpedo - creating life and if mankind has the responsibilty to do so.
Man against Machine - Genesis again? Not sure.
Also had a father/son relationship which is another good story element.

 

[toonloon]

"It looked like they brought Harve Bennett on board to make a good film that just happened to be Star Trek. Not necessarily a "Star Trek film", if that makes sense."

I'm sorry but I respectfully and completly disagree with that. TWOK is much more a Star Trek film than TMP was. The troika of Kirk/Spock/McCoy is exactly as it was in the series, the design is full of rich colours, there is a strong and thoughtful villain, Kirk is very much the daredevil leader and genius that he was... honestly, I could go on and on here.

The one thing that I will say that is slightly different in TWOK is that it has more character growth and a larger "theme" running through it than most episodes had, namely getting old, acceptance and loss. In that respect, I found it to have more emotional gravitass drawn from the characters whereas in TOS the emotional impact came a lot from the situations.

 

[A beaker full of death]

It looked like they brought Harve Bennett on board to make a good film that just happened to be Star Trek. Not necessarily a "Star Trek film", if that makes sense.

I quite agree. It was, simply, a damn good movie, rooted not in Sci-Fi, nor in Trek (despite being a sequel to an episode), but in the literature of the sea, from Horatio Hornblower down to, obviously, Moby Dick. Here's a good question: was Khan quoting Moby Dick, or was the movie quoting it?

Was it in keeping with the series? Yes, of course -- precisely because both had the same INSPIRATION.

As for what was new... the film had sort of a gritty realism to it. It felt like Star Trek had been transposed to the real world.

 

[felixofgolden]

"It looked like they brought Harve Bennett on board to make a good film that just happened to be Star Trek. Not necessarily a "Star Trek film", if that makes sense."

I'm sorry but I respectfully and completly disagree with that. TWOK is much more a Star Trek film than TMP was. The troika of Kirk/Spock/McCoy is exactly as it was in the series, the design is full of rich colours, there is a strong and thoughtful villain, Kirk is very much the daredevil leader and genius that he was... honestly, I could go on and on here.

The one thing that I will say that is slightly different in TWOK is that it has more character growth and a larger "theme" running through it than most episodes had, namely getting old, acceptance and loss. In that respect, I found it to have more emotional gravitass drawn from the characters whereas in TOS the emotional impact came a lot from the situations.

I remember reading that "Harve and the good movie that happens to be Trek connection" in a Starlog magazine article back in the 80's.
But I also agree with you about TWOK being a very Trek movie too.

 

[cardinal biggles]

I quite agree. It was, simply, a damn good movie, rooted not in Sci-Fi, nor in Trek (despite being a sequel to an episode), but in the literature of the sea, from Horatio Hornblower down to, obviously, Moby Dick. Here's a good question: was Khan quoting Moby Dick, or was the movie quoting it?

Was it in keeping with the series? Yes, of course -- precisely because both had the same INSPIRATION.

As for what was new... the film had sort of a gritty realism to it. It felt like Star Trek had been transposed to the real world.

I'm in total agreement on this. A good story is a good story, and would still be just as good even if the character names were different. Stories like "City on the Edge," "Inner Light," "The Visitor," "Balance of Terror," and yes, even Wrath of Khan would work just as well if they weren't Trek. (BoT certainly had its roots in Run Silent, Run Deep and The Enemy Below.) All this nonsense about something not being a "Trek story" is just that. If a story "has" to be Star Trek in order to be any good, then it's really not that good a story, it's just riding on the coattails of Trek's popularity.

 

[Red Ranger]

The Beef,

With the answers posted here so far, you certainly are off to a good start for your paper.

I'll weigh in. TWOk is my favorite of all ST films, and I also think it stands up with other, non-SF films. On the surface, it's a retelling of Moby Dick, with Khan as Captain Ahab and Kirk as the White Whale, Khan's obsession. And it's a cautionary tale on how revenge is rarely productive, and often consumes those preoccupied with it.

I agree that this film is the closest to TOS, in its emphasis on the troika of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, on its action orientation, with a side order of philosophy. And, in the Genesis Project, it strives to ask questions about humanity and its place in the universe -- should we be like gods and create life? And it also shows how science can be twisted to serve destructive purposes, instead of the creative purpose of making new worlds Genesis was all about.

And it's also about passing the torch, although that aspect of the film wasn't entirely successful, because while Saavik was an interesting character, David Marcus really was a bit of a bore. The torch would not be officially passed till TNG.

Red Ranger

 

[Warped9]

Hey guys, I've been an off-and-on poster here for about 6 years (this is a new profile, its been so long I couldn't remember any of my old info). Anyway, I'm doing some research on Wrath of Khan for a sci-fi film course I'm taking this semester and wanted to see if I could get some fans' opinions on some things. Now, part of my paper requires just looking at normal fan buzz about the film, so I've been sifting through threads about the film already just to see what's already been said. Now I'd like to bring up a few points and see what you guys think about the subject.

My question is, what do you guys think of the direction Trek took with Star Trek II? I know its ancient history at this point, but looking back at it, the atmosphere of TWOK and the TOS films that followed it is radically different from TOS and TMP. Very nautical, much more militaristic. There are similarities too, of course. TWOK, its themes, and its character interaction are in many ways much more like the Trek of TOS than TMP, which looking back I know many see as the anomaly. Also, the characters behave more like living, breathing humans than they did previously, bringing the characterization of TOS out of the 60s TV era and fully onto the big screen (TMP did this some as well, but it wasn't the primary focus). I guess what I'm getting at is that this seems like the moment when TOS grew up and its interesting to analyze some of the directions that process decided to take. I'm just curious to see what you all have to say on the subject. Especially if there are any fans here from back then, I'd be very interested to see what contemporary fans thought about it at the time and what they think now. Thanks for your time .

I disagree that this is when TOS "grew up." In fact I think TWoK is when the franchise lost a lot of its inherent intelligence in storytelling. I also heartily disliked Bennett and Meyer's more militaristic look and feel.

TWoK had energy, pacing and good character moments. But next to no brains. The film was very much a reset button for after the criticisms leveled at TMP. But I will argue that a lot of went wrong with TMP was directly attributable to Paramount for not being able to make up its mind what project to pursue, unfairly piggy-backing the costs of a stillborn series to the film as well as not allowing Robert Wise the little extra time he needed to properly finish the film.

That said Wise should have allowed a bit more colour into TMP. And he should have injected a little extra something into the story for the audience to chew on besides the V'ger threat. But even so TMP is a lot smarter than what followed.

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
I agree most absolutely and whole-heartedly.

 

[Sector 7]

^^Well spoken (written). I think I'll just say ditto, because you covered my own thoughts so well. Thanks RR.

 

[The_Beef]

Thanks for the responses guys. The paper is indeed going very well.

I disagree that this is when TOS "grew up." In fact I think TWoK is when the franchise lost a lot of its inherent intelligence in storytelling. I also heartily disliked Bennett and Meyer's more militaristic look and feel.

I agree with you that it did move away from more intelligent story lines, at least in sci-fi terms. The subsequent movies definitely revolved more around action, humor, and character development than true science fiction. I suppose this is just something I glossed over while thinking about the issue because truer science fiction stories returned in the later series. What I really mean by "grew up", though, is the focus on characters. The characters of TMP really just seem to be there for exposition and there's no real emotional investment. I guess the fair thing to do would be to acknowledge that there are different kinds of intelligence to these stories. While the post-Khan films lacked deep science fiction, they did feature deep characterization.

One other thing I intend to delve into is the theme of redemption in this film. The revenge element and the Moby Dick connection always seems to get the most focus. However, having gone back and re-watched the film several times recently for research (and entertainment . There are reasons why I picked this film to write on), I've really become fascinated by the salvation part of the story. It begins with Kirk in unhappy retirement, feeling that his life is coming to an end. The problem worsens as the story progresses, with one of Kirk's old decisions (Khan) coming back to bite him. Kirk's career now is dwindling to a close, his past is full of regrets and mistakes (Carol and his son, as well as Khan). It is through his friend's sacrifice, however, that Kirk finally sees what has been important in his life. Its not so much about being a starship captain again: its about family and friends and acknowledging what they mean to him. The performance of Amazing Grace at the end doesn't just serve as a memorial for Spock: it smacks the viewer in the face with this idea that Kirk has been redeemed. It is this redemption and the film's connection to A Tale of Two Cities, Spock's gift to Kirk, that makes up the actual point of the film. Its pretty interesting, really: on the one hand you have Khan, a man who gives his life and the lives of his followers for the sake of vengeance and hatred, and Spock, who gives his life for the good of his friends. Completely opposite ends of the spectrum.