Troi As Number One.

[Red Ranger]

People,

In thinking about TNG and TOS, I wonder how things could be different if a character had a different role, and how audiences changed from the '60s to the '80s.

I recall audiences didn't like the character of Number One in The Cage, and Rodenberry remarked he'd wait for a 23rd century audience before he did that again, have a woman as second-in-command. But he didn't have to really wait that long.

Instead of Riker as Picard's first officer, I can see Troi being an 80s version of Number One if recast as Commander Deanna Troi. I would have made a couple of key changes in her character -- as a half-Betazed, I would've made her much more arrogant about her Betazed heritage -- haughty as well as smart and beautiful.

And imagine Riker as Counselor Riker. I would've made him more of a cad, despite his position as being in charge of the crew's mental health. This would create more tension between the haughty, driven Commander Troi, the one who broke off the relationship because of her career, and the happy-go-lucky, I-don't-care-we-had-a-fling (but I really do) Counselor Riker.

Speculate!

Red Ranger

 

[Ward Fowler]

Interesting idea. I think Jonathan Frakes could probably have pulled off the character of Counselor Riker, but I don't if Marina Sirtis had the acting chops to be believable as first officer. Plus she really didn't have any kind of commanding presence about her. Now, if Gene Roddenberry had followed through with his original plan and cast Denise Crosby as Troi, then that may have worked. She would have made a far more convincing first officer.

 

[WillsBabe]

^ Good point. It's intriguing to think of a TNG with Yar as the first officer and Riker as the counsellor. could really go for that as a concept. I like the way that would shake up the "traditional" casting roles. Where would that have left Troi? Security chief? I'd like to see Worf still in that role.

 

[Red Ranger]

Well, Ward, I was thinking of how well Troi did in Face of the Enemy, arguably the best ep to showcase Troi. When she was given challenging material she could rise to the occasion. Before that, Sirtis was often cast as the stereotypical "woman in jeopardy" in movies. But yes, Denise Crosby as first officer could've been interesting as well. -- RR

 

[Ward Fowler]

Well, Ward, I was thinking of how well Troi did in Face of the Enemy, arguably the best ep to showcase Troi. When she was given challenging material she could rise to the occasion. Before that, Sirtis was often cast as the stereotypical "woman in jeopardy" in movies. But yes, Denise Crosby as first officer could've been interesting as well. -- RR

You're right about Face of the Enemy as being the best Troi episode. She certainly came across better (and stronger) than usual. I just don't know if I could see Marina Sirtis believably leading an away team every week or having the gravitas to take the big chair in times of crisis when the Captain is away. She's a decent actress and she sure was nice to look at, but I don't know if she could help carry a show.

This has gotten me thinking again about what it would have been like if they had killed off Riker as originally planned and replaced him with his double. I believe they were going to put Tom Riker at the conn station weren't they? And of course Data would have become first officer. I'm glad that ultimately they didn't go through with it but it sure would have been ballsy.

 

[JustKate]

Honestly, I don't think Frakes had the acting chops to pull off being a first officer either - but I'll grant that he did give Riker a true command presence. He was very good at that (and goodness knows he was nice to look at, right WB? ). Whether Siritis could have pulled it off, I don't know - I kind of doubt it, but I think part of the reason for my doubt is the weak writing for the early episodes. I can just so easily imagine the writers really screwing this concept up, frankly. I mean, they didn't do a good job with Riker/Frakes, IMO - that's probably part (though I hope not all) of my reasons for so disliking the character.

I am, obviously, not a fan of Frakes or Riker, but in all fairness, I think the writers really messed up there. He spent an awful lot of those 7 seasons (not even counting the movies) sticking out his jaw and looking manly and resolute while saying things like "Shields up!" and also being charming to various females as they passed through the series. There were some exceptions but dang, not very many. It was boring. It followed a formula. It required almost nothing of the actor. The only character given less chance to grow and change was probably poor ol' Geordi. Could Frakes have handled a more complicated character? I don't know, but I do know that he wasn't given many opportunities to try.

In the same way, Siritis' character suffered through some truly wretched writing, and as a result, I don't know if my lack of confidence in her abilities is justified or if she could have done a great job if given the right material to work with - as she did in Face of the Enemy. Did she always have that ability and just never had many opportunities to show it off? Or did she become a better actress as the series went on? Or both? I don't know.

I do like the idea of using something besides a traditional action-type hero as first officer for a lot of reasons. But the biggest reason is that maybe, just maybe, it would have pushed the writers into working harder at making the Enterprise's first officer a genuinely interesting character. With Riker, they depended waaaaaayyyy too much on a stereotype, I think. I haven't read enough of the "Making of TNG" type stuff to know if they consciously took the TOS formula of an action-hero captain and an intellectual first officer and flipflopped it, but that was the result, and that result was, IMO, less than ideal and definitely less than original. It let them take the easy way out in characterizing Riker.

So I would basically be in favor of anything that gets us away from formulaic writing. If a female first officer would do the trick - and I can see how it might - that works for me.

 

[Klaitu]

People,

In thinking about TNG and TOS, I wonder how things could be different if a character had a different role, and how audiences changed from the '60s to the '80s.

I recall audiences didn't like the character of Number One in The Cage, and Rodenberry remarked he'd wait for a 23rd century audience before he did that again, have a woman as second-in-command. But he didn't have to really wait that long.

Number One was dropped at the request of NBC. There were no Audiences for "The Cage" as it was not rebroadcast until Court Martial, and not as an episode until the 80's.

Still, I really liked Number One as a character. I liked her way better than Kira, to be sure. She is probably my favorite female Star Trek character of all time.

Instead of Riker as Picard's first officer, I can see Troi being an 80s version of Number One if recast as Commander Deanna Troi. I would have made a couple of key changes in her character -- as a half-Betazed, I would've made her much more arrogant about her Betazed heritage -- haughty as well as smart and beautiful.

This is a really hard thing to imagine, since Troi is already established as a character in my mind. If Troi were to be first officer, she would have to be completely different than her counselor version.

I think that Marina Sirtis can play an excellent woman, but playing a strong woman is apparently something that is incredibly difficult to do. Number One did it, Kira did it, Ivanova from B5 did it.. but Janeway, Torres, and Crusher failed miserably at it. It's iffy if Marina Sirtis could pull it off convincingly.

And imagine Riker as Counselor Riker. I would've made him more of a cad, despite his position as being in charge of the crew's mental health. This would create more tension between the haughty, driven Commander Troi, the one who broke off the relationship because of her career, and the happy-go-lucky, I-don't-care-we-had-a-fling (but I really do) Counselor Riker.

I don't know what to say other than that this would be awful. Any male counselor in TNG would have been a waste. Troi is bad enough as a counselor, but some of that you can get away with because she's a woman. You get a guy in there talking about feelings and junk and people will just turn off the TV.

Just think "man of the people" with Riker in Trois place and you'll see how bad an idea this is... and it was already hideously awful with Troi.

I think it would be more interesting to think about how the series would have changed if Denise Crosby had been cast as Troi and Sirtis has been cast as the security chief.

 

[T'Girl]

Denise Crosby as number one
Jonathan Frakes as counselor
Micheal Dorn as security chief
Wil Wheaton as nurse Ogawa (to get him off the bridge)

Marina Sirtis as Keiko Ishikawa, would of made Miles O'Brian a lot less cranky during DS9.

 

[Red Ranger]

Wow, a lot of Riker and Troi hate in here! Maybe I have a soft spot (or is that "hard spot"?) for Troi because I'm warm for Marina Sirtis' form! I think if written as a haughty, arrogant person with a superiority complex, Troi could have pulled off a strong first officer character.

It's true that Nana Visitor was able to convincingly pull off such a strong character like Kira Nerys, but I must admit, at first, I really hated her voice, till I got used to it. I had the same reaction to Captain Janeway's voice at first, too.

Part of the problem with Troi was definitely more the writers' fault than the actress' fault. I think they all had trouble creating strong, believable female characters. Yar had her moments, but they did "feminize" her at most inopportune times, like the time she cried because Q put her in the penalty box in Hide & Q. The only interesting thing about that scene is when Yar comes on to Picard, "Oh, captain -- if you weren't a captain!" Picard had mojo with women, that's for sure!

Oh, and Klaitu? According to the book, The Making of Star Trek, it mentions a test audience at NBC viewed the first pilot, and, "Audience tests of this character, after viewing the pilot, ranged from resentment to disbelief." But the audience did like the actress, indicating the biases of a 1960s audience not used to seeing women in powerful positions like Number One.

Red Ranger

 

[The Badger]

So would a first officer Troi still do the Riker thing, putting a foot up on the helm console and shoving her groin into the helm officers face? If so it'd really alter the bridge dynamics.

 

[JustKate]

If she played it haughty and superior...it might have worked. I don't know. If so, it would have been pretty darn interesting. I hope you didn't get any Troi hate from my post, RR. I didn't dislike either the character or the actress. It's a different story on some of that early writing, though!

 

[Red Ranger]

So would a first officer Troi still do the Riker thing, putting a foot up on the helm console and shoving her groin into the helm officers face? If so it'd really alter the bridge dynamics.

I would approve wholeheartedly! Now that's a groin worth looking at! Her nickname wouldn't be stink-nuts, though -- maybe stink-hole?

If she played it haughty and superior...it might have worked. I don't know. If so, it would have been pretty darn interesting. I hope you didn't get any Troi hate from my post, RR. I didn't dislike either the character or the actress. It's a different story on some of that early writing, though!

I hear you. Some of her early lines were bloody embarrassing! "Captain, I sense . . . a powerful mind!" And certainly, First Officer Troi wouldn't have ever worn that cheerleader skant uniform! Or her various civilian catsuits/catdresses, except maybe while off-duty.

I thought of the arrogant addition to her personality partly because we've seen a number of Betazeds with superiority complexes, like Troi's mother, Lwaxana, and the character from Tin Man, Tam Elbrun.

Red Ranger

 

[Wingsley]

As long as you're re-arranging characters, maybe we should question some of their jobs titles as well.

I think Sirtis did a great job with the material she was given. The show's writers let the cast down, but some of the shaping of the characters was wrong as well. The ship's staff was supposed to include a civilian presence to show the Enterprise-D was not just a military vessel, but a vessel of science and exploration. The bridge, in my opinion, didn't need a "local shrink", but instead a head civilian scientist to act as liaison between the Starfleet captain and the ship's civilian contingent. Bingo! There's a great job on the bridge for Dr. Deanna Troi! She wouldn't be the ship's XO, but she would be in more of a leadership role. And rather than working as a subordinate to Picard and Riker, she could occasionally needle them as an advocate for the civvies. I would expect that Sirtis-as-Dr.-Troi would be quite capable of injecting some sarcastic wit into the observation lounge discussions just as McCoy did in TOS.

And I would dispose of the Riker/Troi relationship. They never knew each other before being assigned to the E-D, and she's highly disciplined on-duty so she never mixes business with pleasure. Instead, Troi is a free spirit, and maybe she like to have fun with the guys (or on each new planet) after hours.

On top of all that, I would give Troi something to wear more dignified than that proto-catsuit. On duty, she should either wear a civvie science utility jumpsuit or a civvie woman's business attire. Off duty is another matter. Maybe she occasionally becomes a party animal and lets her hair hang down, so to speak.

So yes, there is merit in the notion of role-shifting for Troi, and giving her a command presence. I'd just do it differently than what's been suggested here thus far.

In reality, though, I'm disappointed that Hollywood in the late 1980's couldn't come up with this on their own. If I had been in on their creative staff meetings back then, the above is what I would've suggested. Roddenberry and others would've shot it down, of course. Ah, but to dream of what might have been...

 

[WillsBabe]

and goodness knows he was nice to look at, right WB? ).

I found him pretty -er- pretty.

With Riker, they depended waaaaaayyyy too much on a stereotype, I think. I haven't read enough of the "Making of TNG" type stuff to know if they consciously took the TOS formula of an action-hero captain and an intellectual first officer and flipflopped it, but that was the result, and that result was, IMO, less than ideal and definitely less than original. It let them take the easy way out in characterizing Riker.

I think you make a lot of good points, Kate. Obviously I am a lot more sympathetic to Riker's character than you. But I pretty much agree with all the points you make. I think the reason they went the way they did with TNG and its first officer and captain were because a new Trek series in itself was a new thing. I think they felt they didn't need to challenge too much with the casting and "traditonal" roles. Although they did do that with Yar.

So I would basically be in favor of anything that gets us away from formulaic writing. If a female first officer would do the trick - and I can see how it might - that works for me.

Me, too.

Any male counselor in TNG would have been a waste.

Of a character? Or of a male?

Troi is bad enough as a counselor, but some of that you can get away with because she's a woman. You get a guy in there talking about feelings and junk and people will just turn off the TV.

By "people" do you mean you, yourself? I wouldn't be turning off. I like the idea. As Kate pointed out earlier, anything that gets us away from formula can be good. I think it would be interesting to challenge audience perceptions.

Just think "man of the people" with Riker in Trois place and you'll see how bad an idea this is... and it was already hideously awful with Troi.

Actually, I think that's a tredmendous idea! I like that episode. I think the idea of seeing that victimisation happens to a guy would be interesting to watch. Again it would challenge perceptions of masculinity and victimisation.

 

[The Badger]

I don't know what to say other than that this would be awful. Any male counselor in TNG would have been a waste. Troi is bad enough as a counselor, but some of that you can get away with because she's a woman. You get a guy in there talking about feelings and junk and people will just turn off the TV.

Or, instead of a stereotypical 'touchy feely' type, a male counsellor would have been better written and based upon actual psychotherapeutic values as opposed to the scriptwriters highly inaccurate preconceptions about what it is a counsellor actually does.

 

[Malleus]

I think that Marina Sirtis can play an excellent woman, but playing a strong woman is apparently something that is incredibly difficult to do. Number One did it, Kira did it, Ivanova from B5 did it.. but Janeway, Torres, and Crusher failed miserably at it. It's iffy if Marina Sirtis could pull it off convincingly.

"Remember Me" was one of a few instances where Crusher was a strong woman.

Anyway, going with the Number One concept, one could easily recast McFadden into the first officer role, instead of a "dumb blonde" or a more typical brunette (Visitor, Mulgrew). I found the Crusher-Riker pairing in "The Host" to be interesting enough.

 

[WillsBabe]

"Remember Me" was one of a few instances where Crusher was a strong woman.

I don't know what this "strong woman" thing means. Not getting at you, Malleus , you didn't bring it up, it's a recurring comment I see. Aren't women just women?

Anyway, going with the Number One concept, one could easily recast McFadden into the first officer role, instead of a "dumb blonde" or a more typical brunette (Visitor, Mulgrew).

I can see this quite well, actually. I don't think she'd change much, either. Although for some reason, I see her with her hair in a chignon!

I found the Crusher-Riker pairing in "The Host" to be interesting enough.

Me, too. I want someone to write this as a fanfic!

 

[Malleus]

"Remember Me" was one of a few instances where Crusher was a strong woman.

I don't know what this "strong woman" thing means. Not getting at you, Malleus , you didn't bring it up, it's a recurring comment I see. Aren't women just women?

I agree entirely, but I was replying to another poster, and I didn't want to use quotation marks excessively.

Anyway, going with the Number One concept, one could easily recast McFadden into the first officer role, instead of a "dumb blonde" or a more typical brunette (Visitor, Mulgrew).

I can see this quite well, actually. I don't think she'd change much, either. Although for some reason, I see her with her hair in a chignon!

I prefer seeing her with that rare curly hair seen in one of the first season episodes. There, she looked like she had the right amount and length of hair, while in future seasons she looked like she had too much.

 

[Anji]

Troi was fine where she was. Siritis played the character with a great deal of empathy and caring.

I had no issues with Riker either. I mean, except for an emergency where the captain was not on the bridge, what could he do? I will say, though, he looks like he was having a ball doing the show.

I also liked the Troi/Riker relationship. They had chemistry together. The Crusher/Picard thing was a no go from the start.

 

[Red Ranger]

Hmm. Maybe I should start a new TNG thread about mixing up slashes among the crew. Riker/Beverly might have worked -- and I also could see a Picard/Troi pairing. Or even Geordi/Troi. -- RR