Trek Lit. Archive

[coconnor]

Does anyone have any idea how long copyright exists on a trek book? For example, just thinking back to the novels released in the late 70's and early 80's, would anyone be else be keen to see some archived and available online?

Be great to have these trek novels available freely online, once the period of copy has expired. Especially as older trek are getting difficult to get your hands on!

Any thoughts?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Does anyone have any idea how long copyright exists on a trek book?

Forever, if CBS keeps renewing its registered trademarks.

For example, just thinking back to the novels released in the late 70's and early 80's, would anyone be else be keen to see some archived and available online?

Almost the entire Pocket Books back market has been available as eBooks for years.

Especially as older trek are getting difficult to get your hands on!

Due to a quirk in its original license, Bantam Books is permitted to reprint all of its ST back market as hardcopies as often as they like, and these titles are still plentiful as second hand books. (Some Bantams sell online for just a few cents plus postage.)

 

[Cicero]

Does anyone have any idea how long copyright exists on a trek book?

Forever, if CBS keeps renewing its registered trademarks.

That's not currently correct in the United States (theoretically, at least). Work-for-hire copyrights here expire 95 years after publication. It's possible - perhaps probable - that trademark law will be further distorted by the time Star Trek copyrights are scheduled to begin expiring (2061), but under current law, Paramount/CBS shouldn't be able to retain control of any of the specific content or characters; that requires prevailing public associations of characters, events, etc. with the existing trademark holder that would cause public confusion regarding the source (e.g. Mickey Mouse and Disney).

 

[Therin of Andor]

Star Trek copyrights are scheduled to being expiring (2061).

As far as coconnor's desire to have free online texts of old ST novels available, 2061 may as well be "forever".

 

[Cicero]

^ Therin the probelm with current US copyright law, which very liberally interprets the Constitutional provisions that allow copyright, but require that authors be granted exclusive right to their writings (the clause is already stretched to include copyrights of media other than the written word) for only "limited Times" (sic).

If copyright law were held to the same standards as patent law, which is enabled and governed by the same clause, TOS would have begun entering the public domain before TNG aired (and the earliest Mickey Mouse cartoons would have become public-owned before the onset of the Berlin Airlift).

 

[Therin of Andor]

authors be granted exclusive right to their writings...

Further complicated by the fact that ST licensed tie-in authors have already signed away their "exclusive rights" to CBS, the copyright holder.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the OP's original wish still can't be granted.

 

[Idoliside]

As far as claiming rights, I don't think any of the authors will be able to turn round in a courtroom and state that anything they wrote was totally original (in terms of setting and characters).
I think the best that could happen is that some authors be granted exclusive rights to develop certain characters (for example if KRAD had created Ensign Whatserface, then gone on to say that no one else could write her because she was his creation)

 

[Allyn Gibson]

authors be granted exclusive right to their writings...

Further complicated by the fact that ST licensed tie-in authors have already signed away their "exclusive rights" to CBS, the copyright holder.

I recall a clause in the contract I signed for "Make-Believe" five years ago along the lines of "renouncing all rights throughout this and any other universe in perpetuity."

Also, Ian, you confuse copyright and trademark. "Star Trek" will never cease to be a CBS trademark so long as they keep using it. But Star Trek will, under current copyright law, begin to pass into the public domain a few decades hence, at which point others can use Star Trek; they just can't market it as such.

However, I don't expect that Star Trek will come into the public domain; there's bound to be another revision of copyright law in about a decade at the behest of the Mouse. It's ironic that a company that has no problems exploiting the public domain is bringing about its demise.

 

[captcalhoun]

renouncing all rights throughout this and any other universe in perpetuity

who were you working for, Simon Cowell?

 

[Stevil2001]

I always really liked that line. But what if my myriad universe self didn't sign it?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Ian, you confuse copyright and trademark. "Star Trek" will never cease to be a CBS trademark so long as they keep using it. But Star Trek will, under current copyright law, begin to pass into the public domain a few decades hence, at which point others can use Star Trek; they just can't market it as such.

Not confusing anything, but perhaps just not explaining things to your exacting mind? The OP was asking about copyright, but I was saying it was the registered trademarks (my quote was "... if CBS keeps renewing its registered trademarks") that currently prevents what he wanted to do, ie. put free eBooks of old ST novels on the web. Even if the copyright runs out, I wouldn't expect the trademarks to be dropped any time soon.

I seem to recall Disney doing something to ensure Mickey Mouse never passed into the public domain, and I can't see the other big, modern, franchised cash cows being allowed to pass over either. And if others "can't market it as such", would it even resemble Star Trek? You mean they'd have to call it something like "Galaxy Journey", featuring Mr Spook and his talkcorder?

there's bound to be another revision of copyright law

Well, it's always going to lag behind technology.

 

[Christopher]

And if others "can't market it as such", would it even resemble Star Trek? You mean they'd have to call it something like "Galaxy Journey", featuring Mr Spook and his talkcorder?

I think he means that others could tell stories set in the Trek universe, but couldn't use any names that are trademarked by CBS. They couldn't call it Star Trek; they couldn't feature the U.S.S. Enterprise (because that name is trademarked); but they could use any character or concept that's under copyright but not trademarked. For instance, they could do a series about the adventures of Captain Garrovick and Lieutenant Kirk aboard the Farragut, so long as they didn't have Star Trek in the title. (I'm pretty sure Kirk's name isn't trademarked, since it doesn't have a "TM" after it on cover blurbs.) They could probably do a Titan series too, by the same token. Although I could be wrong about that. Pocket does this weird thing where we're required to write "the Starship Titan" rather than the more correct "the starship Titan," and I know it's done for either copyright or trademark reasons, but I forget which. Still, there's no "TM" after "Starship Titan" on the book covers.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Pretty close. A good example in practice is the Captain Marvel situation.

DC has a character named Captain Marvel. But they can't call a book "Captain Marvel"; Marvel owns the trademark on the words "Captain Marvel." But that doesn't prevent DC from publishing a comic, Billy Batson and the Power of SHAZAM, that stars DC's Captain Marvel and he's referred to as Captain Marvel.

I think that, once the copyrights start expiring, people could legally write and sell stories of Kirk and the Enterprise, but they couldn't market those works as "Star Trek" (since CBS holds the trademark on those words) or as "The Adventures of the starship Enterprise") (since CBS holds the trademark on "Enterprise" as well).

But I don't expect the copyrights to expire. Copyright extensions will be passed, and will continue to be passed, all to protect the Mouse.

 

[ronny]

Copyright extensions will be passed, and will continue to be passed, all to protect the Mouse.

You're 100% right, 0% wrong.

 

[Therin of Andor]

But I don't expect the copyrights to expire. Copyright extensions will be passed...

Exactly, which I thought was the point of my original post.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

But I don't expect the copyrights to expire. Copyright extensions will be passed...

Exactly, which I thought was the point of my original post.

No, you specifically said "trademark." I quote: "Forever, if CBS keeps renewing its registered trademarks." Now, it's possible you meant copyright, because you were answering someone's question on copyright, but copyright isn't what you said, and copyright and trademark are two entirely different things. Trademarks don't expire, so long as they continue to be used. Copyrights do expire, under current law. But I don't expect that copyrights on anything post-1923 will ever truly expire; copyright extensions will be passed in the United States and Europe, all to protect Disney.

 

[Therin of Andor]

No, you specifically said "trademark." I quote: "Forever, if CBS keeps renewing its registered trademarks." Now, it's possible you meant copyright, because you were answering someone's question on copyright.

The OP asked when the ST copyrights on licensed ST novels expired and I said - or tried to say - that it wasn't the expiry of copyrights that would hamper his vision (of free old ST novels available online some day in the future), but the fact that CBS would probably never let their registered trademarks fall into disuse. So yes, I deliberately mentioned trademarks and I really can't see that what I said was so incorrect it would be flogged to death...

The OP seemingly imagined a near future where early ST novels could be made available online (for free), and it won't happen.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

*sigh*

Ian, consider the Max Fleischer Superman cartoons. These cartoons are in the public domain; the copyright wasn't renewed way back when.

These cartoons are widely sold on DVD (the cartoons are in the public domain, and anyone can do anything with them that they want), and DC Comics' trademark on "Superman," which remains in effect, hasn't prevented their dissemination.

Sometime, in the early 22nd-century, when, under current copyright law, Keith DeCandido's Diplomatic Implausibility falls into the public domain, CBS' trademark on the words "Star Trek" shouldn't prevent Diplomatic Implausibility from becoming part of the 22nd-century Project Gutenberg. The trademark also shouldn't prevent Keith (or his heirs) from printing and selling the book because, again, it's in the public domain. The trademark would remain in force, assuming that CBS (or its heirs) were still actively exploiting the trademark, even though some things that were produced and published had fallen into the public domain when their copyrights expired.

Now, as I've said, I don't expect this scenario to happen. I don't expect that anything, if the copyright renewals are made, will ever fall into the public domain again, as Disney and other corporations will continue to lobby Congress to extend copyright.

We're really at an interesting point in history. What does copyright mean for corporately-owned characters when early stories involving them fall out of copyright, and what does the effect of trademark have upon the exploitation of the public domain?

If I'm flogging you to death, Ian, it's only because you have copyright and trademark hopelessly confused.

 

[Therin of Andor]

If I'm flogging you to death, Ian...

And you seem to enjoy it so much.

Must be more of my "nonsense" from the other "2011" thread. I'm sure it's possible to disagree with people, or point out their errors, without putting them down.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

To be honest, Ian, I don't enjoy conversations like this at all.